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Yes, we need one anyway.

17 (21.8%)

No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.

27 (34.6%)

I don't care, let's see what happens.

34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75

[Morrigi]

And if we are going to act militarily, we must not only bomb them, we must crush them, and make them so terrified of us that they will not raise a finger. We must engage in a full-scale ground and air offensive and show no more mercy than they would show us, and not even pretend to care about hearts and minds. Or we should not act at all, and leave the entire region to the wolves.

You really want us to invade Syria? What good is getting stuck in another middle eastern quagmire gonna do?

Either we act with all the force we are capable of including the most terrifying psychological warfare we can possibly manage, and restore Assad to power until the situation is stabilized, or we do not act at all and let them sort their own shit out or for Russia to deal with. I am open to either option, but the middle ground is doing more harm than good. Also, the borders must be closed, and much more aid must be sent to the refugee camps in Jordan and Turkey.

[Sergarr]

Are you willing to commit genocide? Are you willing to kill not only every last one of them, but also every woman and child related to them? Are you willing to kill all the innocent bystanders in their home countries who will grow up watching your soldiers kill their brothers? Are you willing to go in and exterminate an entire people?
If not, then I suggest being wiling to take one or two more punches before they calm down.

What bizarre world do you live in where the two choices you have are genocide or suicide?

The same world that has produced the believers into "absolute freedom of speech", I'd imagine. I mean, every single argument that I've seen from these people was essentially "the only two choices are absolute freedom of speech or totalitarian shithole". I think the libertarians use something very similar to this, too. Very binary world-view.

Also I find it quite hilarious that there are people who're willing to discuss West leaving the Middle East now. FYI Daesh is currently losing, hard. They've just lost two major cities within one week, they've been experiencing mass desertions for quite some time now, and yet there are people who're willing to essentially surrender right on the cusp of victory, just because of a single terrorist act?

[ragnar119]

You say that like most of Europe didn't come too.

Well most actually didnt, only few countries like France and UK did.

[Sonlirain]

You say that like most of Europe didn't come too.

Well most actually didnt, only few countries like France and UK did.

You forgot about Poland.
*laughtrack.mp3*

[Baffler]

And if we are going to act militarily, we must not only bomb them, we must crush them, and make them so terrified of us that they will not raise a finger. We must engage in a full-scale ground and air offensive and show no more mercy than they would show us, and not even pretend to care about hearts and minds. Or we should not act at all, and leave the entire region to the wolves.

You really want us to invade Syria? What good is getting stuck in another middle eastern quagmire gonna do?

This is another bad case of the "invading Iraq was bad, so all intervention in the middle east is bad" syndrome. The situation now is completely different from Iraq in 2003.

The situation in Syria is delicate enough as it is. Throwing in the added factor of a Western intervention is going to make it even worse.

Halfhearted support of rebels by Western powers (and not quite as halfhearted support of Assad by Russia) is the reason Syria is how it is today and not like Bahrain where the government stomped any and all dissent into the dirt. Nobody is willing to pull out because the faction their rival supports will win if they do, and nobody is willing to commit further because it will escalate conflict with their rival. So the war continues, and people on the ground quite sensibly decide that it would be best if they just fucked on out of there. Poor handling on Europe's part of those people created the migrant crisis, but Europe, the USA, and Russia are all culpable for the situation as it stands. A proper intervention is the only way to solve mitigate the damage done, but questions about the goals of the intervention and what to do with Syria once order is restored have and will smother any such attempt in its crib.

Also I find it quite hilarious that there are people who're willing to discuss West leaving the Middle East now. FYI Daesh is currently losing, hard. They've just lost two major cities within one week, they've been experiencing mass desertions for quite some time now, and yet there are people who're willing to essentially surrender right on the cusp of victory, just because of a single terrorist act?

Agreed. Daesh can't stand up against actual opposition. All we need to do is push them over, and when the world doesn't end after we knock them down their ideological base will collapse.

You say that like most of Europe didn't come too.

Well most actually didnt, only few countries like France and UK did.

You forgot about Poland.
*laughtrack.mp3*

Most of Europe.

A lot didn't send very many, but they came.

[LordBucket]

I'd have preferred if we'd been good allies with Iran since 65 years ago, remained neutral in the Iraq-Iran conflict and never become involved with Israel. The entire situation in the middle east would be completely different today. Western involvement in the middle east has been a continual comedy of errors since long before most of us were even born.

[scrdest]

I'd have preferred if we'd been good allies with Iran since 65 years ago, remained neutral in the Iraq-Iran conflict and never become involved with Israel. The entire situation in the middle east would be completely different today. Western involvement in the middle east has been a continual comedy of errors since long before most of us were even born.

Well, you might as well claim it's been fucked up since at least the First Crusade. And I'm not trying to say you'd be wrong.

[SaberToothTiger]

I've recently (a week ago) heard from me pops that some people think that maybe the colonies should have endured for longer. And I'm beginning to see the point. Perhaps it wouldn't help, perhaps it would, but it was an interesting thought.

[miljan]

You say that like most of Europe didn't come too.

Well most actually didnt, only few countries like France and UK did.

As said most did as they are part of NATO. Unfortunately all this crimes will pass unpunished. There was/is a huge propaganda going around to give excuse to legitimacy of invading other countries and literally destroying lives and killing a huge number of people over the years directly and indirectly. And i dont think it will change any time soon

[Bohandas]

Killing bystanders has been an inevitability of war since forever. Besides, living in ISIS controlled territory is giving them support, whether you're actually fighting or not. That's why bombing civilian infrastructure isn't inherently a war crime.

I think GWAR put it best in Let Us Slay, "Don't send us to war and then make us lose it"

Speaking of which, does anyone else find it ironic that most of this violence happened at a heavy metal concert?

[smjjames]

I'd have preferred if we'd been good allies with Iran since 65 years ago, remained neutral in the Iraq-Iran conflict and never become involved with Israel. The entire situation in the middle east would be completely different today. Western involvement in the middle east has been a continual comedy of errors since long before most of us were even born.

I think you should go back further to almost a century ago, to a few years after WWI when the MidEast (or rather, the Fertile Crescent region) got split between European (England and France mostly, I don't think anybody else got any pieces) powers after the fall of the Ottomans.

[smjjames]

Killing bystanders has been an inevitability of war since forever. Besides, living in ISIS controlled territory is giving them support, whether you're actually fighting or not. That's why bombing civilian infrastructure isn't inherently a war crime.

I think GWAR put it best in Let Us Slay, "Don't send us to war and then make us lose it"

Speaking of which, does anyone else find it ironic that most of this violence happened at a heavy metal concert?

I heard that it was a metal band, not heavy metal, and I don't see the irony.

[LordBucket]

Well, you might as well claim it's been fucked up since at least the First Crusade. And I'm not trying to say you'd be wrong.

Maybe, but there was a massive window  where peace would have been possible if we'd simply not insisted on continually stirring the hornet's nest. Oh, sure: muslims today might have been killing each other right now, but there was no reason to turn that into our problem. Funding Afghanistani jihadists against the Soviets, overthrowling the democratically elected government of Iran, everything to do with Israel, putting Hussein into power then invading his country twice and killing him, CIA rape and torture camps...even looking only at the past ~70 years, the "muslim world" viewed as a group entity has a terribly long list of legitimate complaints against "the west" viewed as a group entity.

If we'd been minding our own business for the past 70 years, I doubt anyone over there would be very seriously concerned about catholic/muslim problems several centuries ago. Maybe, just maybe...if we mind our own business for the next 70 years they'll stop caring about problems of today.

[smjjames]

Yeah, the Cold War was full of shitty things which are all coming to bite us in the ass now, all fuelled by paranoia and the desire to combat the Soviets and the flip side for the Soviets too.

[boki]

You say that like most of Europe didn't come too.

Well most actually didnt, only few countries like France and UK did.

As said most did as they are part of NATO. Unfortunately all this crimes will pass unpunished. There was/is a huge propaganda going around to give excuse to legitimacy of invading other countries and literally destroying lives and killing a huge number of people over the years directly and indirectly. And i dont think it will change any time soon

Well this time, they need to fix the problems they made so maybe it would be acceptable to actually work with government in Iraq, Syria and try to fix Libya after fuck ups with a more military approach.

But its really strange, you have generally people in west calling themselves democrats, civilized and similar, but they are the ones that actually invade and attack/do most war in the last 20, 30 years and force their beliefs/systems on others.