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Should this thread become the new European Politics thread?

Yes, we need one anyway.
- 17 (21.8%)
No, we should take that elsewhere and keep this thread as-is.
- 27 (34.6%)
I don't care, let's see what happens.
- 34 (43.6%)

Total Members Voted: 75


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Author Topic: The Paris Attacks  (Read 59541 times)

RedKing

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #555 on: November 27, 2015, 03:52:16 am »

As for the fantasy of France, the UK or the US achieving their goals and demolishing ISIS through air strikes, then they will have to also bomb in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Libya, Algeria, Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Yemen, Tunisia, Israel, the Palestinians, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, France, Belgium, the UK, Spain, Bosnia, India, Russia and a bunch of other countries in order to demolish ISIS and that's simply not going to happen. if, for some obscure reason, the french suddenly become competent and do manage to eliminate the entire ISIS leadership in both Syria and Iraq, very soon new leaders will emerge and history taught us that eliminating a leader does not necessarily ends an organization. you can call them ISIS, you can call them Daesh, you can call them Al Qaeda in Iraq, you can call them Al Qaeda, you can call them Mujahideen, you can call them Jihadists and you can call them Islamists, it doesn't matter, Crush one, the other will rise.
Tell that to the Tamil Tigers.

I do agree though that military action alone is generally ineffective at ending a terrorist organization. But combined with the right mix of diplomacy and PR, it's an effective tool. People are less inclined to join a group that gets its ass kicked hard and constantly. It's ISIS's military successes in Iraq and Syria that have been the most effective recruiting tool. Everyone wants to be on the side of a winner (especially in that part of the world).
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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #556 on: November 27, 2015, 04:35:12 am »

It seems to me like the Paris attacks were, from the standpoint of someone who is not an apocalypse cultist, the worst decision strategically they could conceivably make. Like, starting a land war in Asian part of Russia in winter to attack Pearl Harbor-tier bad.

How so? ISIS spent 10K USD in equipment, plus let's guess something along the lines of 1M USD in human assets and in result inflicted direct damages in the hundreds of millions. if the UK and France start escalating their bombing in Syria and Iraq and it appears they will, it translates to additional hundreds of millions (Conservative estimate). the tightening of the security in France and Belgium cost additional hundreds of millions in spending and lost revenues (Conservative estimate) since they are basically paying for people to just stand in street corners and scare innocent people off.

On the other hand, it is entirely possible that the Paris terror attacks generated significant revenues from donations to ISIS. it is also quite possible and reasonable that it also generated a fresh stream of recruits.

They have achieved their goals since they had made their enemies lose a couple of billions, disrupted the population and terrorized it to such extremes, that i dare any European cartoonist to portrait Muhammad shagging a pig signed under his own real name. ain't gonna happen and not out of respect. as for the west invading them and meet them at the battlefields, well, that's actually one of ISIS goals.

As for the fantasy of France, the UK or the US achieving their goals and demolishing ISIS through air strikes, then they will have to also bomb in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Libya, Algeria, Turkey, Indonesia, Pakistan, Yemen, Tunisia, Israel, the Palestinians, Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, France, Belgium, the UK, Spain, Bosnia, India, Russia and a bunch of other countries in order to demolish ISIS and that's simply not going to happen. if, for some obscure reason, the french suddenly become competent and do manage to eliminate the entire ISIS leadership in both Syria and Iraq, very soon new leaders will emerge and history taught us that eliminating a leader does not necessarily ends an organization. you can call them ISIS, you can call them Daesh, you can call them Al Qaeda in Iraq, you can call them Al Qaeda, you can call them Mujahideen, you can call them Jihadists and you can call them Islamists, it doesn't matter, Crush one, the other will rise.

You are also forgetting one little thing. the US had its "Pearl Harbor", it was called 9/11. they went to war. they didn't win this time.

That's why Al Qaeda's still regularly performing successful terror attacks in Europe and the US right?  Same as ISIS? 

It may not be possible to completely eradicate ISIS like that but we can certainly disrupt their chain of command, demoralize them, destroy their materiel and their income sources, etc. 
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Sheb

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #557 on: November 27, 2015, 05:16:06 am »


That's why Al Qaeda's still regularly performing successful terror attacks in Europe and the US right?  Same as ISIS? 


Yes.
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Vilanat

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #558 on: November 27, 2015, 05:42:17 am »

text

All fine and dandy, except you are forgetting one simple thing that completely disregard everything you just said. my 9/11 being "Pearl Harbor' remark was a reply to this:

It seems to me like the Paris attacks were, from the standpoint of someone who is not an apocalypse cultist, the worst decision strategically they could conceivably make. Like, starting a land war in Asian part of Russia in winter to attack Pearl Harbor-tier bad.

When i write "Peal Harbor" in quotes, it means i know very well the two are not comparable, yet for the argument sake and in order to save up space and relief my self and others of the burden of writing over and over again "A strategic decision supposed to lead to the utter defeat of the perpetrators", which was how the Pearl Harbor analogy was presented (Again, an analogy not conceived by me in this context), i am willing to keep it.

Tell that to the Tamil Tigers.

I do agree though that military action alone is generally ineffective at ending a terrorist organization. But combined with the right mix of diplomacy and PR, it's an effective tool. People are less inclined to join a group that gets its ass kicked hard and constantly. It's ISIS's military successes in Iraq and Syria that have been the most effective recruiting tool. Everyone wants to be on the side of a winner (especially in that part of the world).

And Hafez al Assad managed to suppress the Sunni insurgency in Syria in the 70's through sheer force, so? Both the 70's Sunni insurgency and the Tamil tigers were fairly only regional disputes, both were involved of mainly local actors fighting against other local actors and both involved far more than Air strikes and special ops.

That's why Al Qaeda's still regularly performing successful terror attacks in Europe and the US right?  Same as ISIS? 

It may not be possible to completely eradicate ISIS like that but we can certainly disrupt their chain of command, demoralize them, destroy their materiel and their income sources, etc. 

Don't ever kid yourself thinking the attacks on Europe and/or the US were end goals by themselves. it is true a 9/11 in the U.S is extremely unlikely, however, the question you should ask in this context is not whether the threat is imminent or not, but what makes that threat imminent or not. the answer is not that it's low chanced because Al Qaeda aren't active anymore, the answer is that its low chanced because the U.S is spending billions and disrupts its own citizens daily lives protecting itself from it.

Also, is our historic memory so weak as to forget ISIS is Al Qaeda in Iraq? just a few pages ago i linked a document that ISIS use as manifesto, a document that is extremely popular among their soldiers and is said to be mandatory for their leaders, a document that was written by Al Qaeda. who cares if they broke up and sometime fight each other in Syria. These are the same ideologies only with slightly different implementation methods. they are the same enemy in the same war.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2015, 06:30:46 pm by Vilanat »
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Shadowlord

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #559 on: November 27, 2015, 01:51:24 pm »

9/11 also cost Al Qaida $500,000, which had a $35 million operating budget at the time. The Paris attack has been estimated to have cost only $10,000. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/paris-terror-attacks/terror-shoestring-paris-attacks-likely-cost-10-000-or-less-n465711

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Zangi

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #560 on: November 27, 2015, 01:58:38 pm »

Plus the loss of personal.  How much is a terrorist worth(to the organization)?  Do we differentiate based on their competency/skill level/willingness?
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Shadowlord

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #561 on: November 27, 2015, 02:02:13 pm »

That reminds me, in Raqqa, ISIS is/was called "The Organization."
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Mr. Strange

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #562 on: November 27, 2015, 03:11:52 pm »

The Afghan Mujahideen are not the Taliban
I just want to point out that many of the mujahideen were taliban (which means "student" of religious schools, called "madrasa"), who joined the war against the Soviet Onion because of it's stance of state enforced atheism was seen as direct attack on islam, allowing (or demanding) armed resistance even by most moderate interpretations of islam. When the war was "won" most taliban returned home, happy that islamic way of life in Afganistan was secured. Cue years of civil war by power hungry warlords and all the shit that came with it, and those taliban groups started reorganizing themselves around their war-time leaders and returned, as Taliban we know it from the news.

Tl;Dr: Afghan Mujahideen were not Taliban, but many of them were taliban who became the Taliban.
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smjjames

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #563 on: November 27, 2015, 03:33:27 pm »

The Afghan Mujahideen are not the Taliban
I just want to point out that many of the mujahideen were taliban (which means "student" of religious schools, called "madrasa"), who joined the war against the Soviet Onion because of it's stance of state enforced atheism was seen as direct attack on islam, allowing (or demanding) armed resistance even by most moderate interpretations of islam. When the war was "won" most taliban returned home, happy that islamic way of life in Afganistan was secured. Cue years of civil war by power hungry warlords and all the shit that came with it, and those taliban groups started reorganizing themselves around their war-time leaders and returned, as Taliban we know it from the news.

Tl;Dr: Afghan Mujahideen were not Taliban, but many of them were taliban who became the Taliban.

Soviet Onion, lol.

That dual use of the term seems kind of confusing, at least to Western people I guess.
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Morrigi

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #564 on: November 27, 2015, 11:03:48 pm »

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #565 on: November 28, 2015, 12:15:25 am »

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #567 on: November 28, 2015, 05:31:53 am »

*sigh*

Really, France?
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Neonivek

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Re: The Paris Attacks
« Reply #568 on: November 28, 2015, 05:45:15 am »

*sigh*

Really, France?

Uhh they are trying to circumvent the government. That means they are terrorists.

Same reason why America is thinking about not letting you cross the boarder if your Islamic, because all Islamics are terrorists.

On a less sarcastic note: Goodness... it is like France saw the Patriot act and went "Hey, we can screw over civil liberties better then those yanks"
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