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Author Topic: Thoughts on Transhumanism  (Read 22044 times)

Bauglir

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #75 on: October 30, 2015, 12:27:39 am »

well i mean obviously it's the software that has legal rights, not the computer
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

wierd

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #76 on: October 30, 2015, 12:33:18 am »

I request that, at a minimum, you both read this before continuing.

And this.

This also couldn't hurt.

Two out of three are the results of psychologists, producing theories. How well a theory creates testable hypotheses, and how well those hypotheses stand up to emperical research is king. (this is one of the reasons why psychology is widely regarded to not be an actual science.)

Otherwise, you might as well bring out tired tropes like the Ego and the Id.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #77 on: October 30, 2015, 12:34:52 am »

I request that at minimum in order to understand the topic we're discussing you read a tiny selection of texts on mind-theory that agree with my arguments.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #78 on: October 30, 2015, 12:36:42 am »

I request that as we continue these discussions of self and being, that we do so exclusively through a normative ethical framework of virtue ethics, the ethic in question being genocidal bloodthirst against non-human life.
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Bauglir

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #79 on: October 30, 2015, 12:37:02 am »

quick

everybody go read everything marvin minsky ever wrote

especially his grade school exams, i guess, by the exact wording of that line

ah, but seriously. the emotion machine is fun stuff on the topic, though i don't expect it to be particularly convincing or to make an argument for me. it's just good, relevant reading.
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Cthulhu

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #80 on: October 30, 2015, 12:48:49 am »

Reading Minsky is only useful if you understand where he's coming from.  You must also read everything he ever read to fully understand his point of view.  And the same goes for all of those authors.

Really, the answers to questions like these are practically self-evident once you've taken the time to buckle down and become omniscient.
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wierd

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #81 on: October 30, 2015, 12:50:54 am »

Why YES. QED, oh edritch one.
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anzki4

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #82 on: October 30, 2015, 03:16:04 am »

I have no idea what few people mean by consciousness around here. Anyway here how is see it:
1. You get into a small chamber with a window.
2. Machines in the chamber scan you.
3. Your clone emerges from another similar chamber.

Is it you? Yes, from every point of view except that of yourself. No one, not even your closest friends or family can't tell the difference. Only you can, for clearly you are sitting here in this chamber while your clone greets your family and leaves the building with them. Whatever it is that sits here observing the clone with your family, whatever allows you to be the only person who can perceive the difference between the clone and yourself is your "consciousness". And if you die in the process of this cloning, your "consciousness" dies with it. That thing which entered the chamber and observed the clone with it's former family, that thing which is the only person able to recognize that the clone is a clone and not him, does no longer exist.
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i2amroy

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #83 on: October 30, 2015, 04:17:59 am »

Not everything in the brain can be taken out wholesale and replaced without causing serious consequences.
Not sure I agree with this. Sure, you'd suffer mental problems whenever we removed something, but I fail to see how this would be any different from, say, treating someone who lost brain function in an accident. I mean I think we can agree that just because someone loses a chunk of their brain in an accident they aren't magically transformed into someone else and the old person in that body was "killed", right? Because to claim otherwise would also be to claim that anyone who has been in a tragic accident and had part of their brain destroyed (or had a stroke and lost part of their brain function, or had a brain tumor and lost part of their brain function) is no longer the same person but is instead some kind of imposter who took over after the old person in that body "died". And considering I know some people who have gone through that (and have mostly recovered from their injuries), I find that result both mentally abhorrent and kinda offensive, to be honest.

I mean at this point with the amount of humans on the planet we've had individuals who have suffered pretty much any type of localized brain injury imaginable and bounce back, up to the point of some people who have literally lost the parts of their brain that have kept them breathing subconsciously and have had to spend the remainder of their (usually short) life on life support. To claim that "oh no, really those people died in their accidents and someone different took there place" seems kind of a strange claim, considering that in pretty much every survival case people have been able to access at least some of their old memories/etc., and that they themselves still view them as the same person. Even massive injuries resulting in persistent vegetative states do have the occasional person wakeup and return to some level normalcy as their "old" selves, albeit often with lingering mental disability baggage.

Medicine has reached the point where it is no longer possible for you to say "oh, but nobody has ever managed to survive as themselves after taking that brain injury". Even Phineas Gage, who suffered so much personality change right after his injury that his friends no longer thought he was Gage, after a few years managed to return to the point where he was accepted as just a different take on his old self instead of some sort of stranger in Gage's body. To put it in terms of the earlier remove an arm metaphor, modern medicine has shown that are brains are indeed all "arms" without any "heads". There is no particular bunch of neurons that, when destroyed, suddenly "kills" the old you, just ones that warp or wind you instead.

As for the earlier ship of Theseus example, I'd say that the CAD drawing goes a bit far. I'd probably describe it like this instead:
1) You start with a ship made of wood.
2) Each time you remove a plank you replace it with an identical one made of metal.
3) You now have a (still functional) ship that looks identical, but everything is now metal instead of wood.
4) Now that the entire ship is made out of metal, it has the required internal strength required for you to strap boosters to the sides of it and use it as a rocket ship that flies through space instead of a normal ship on the ocean, something that would never have been possible in the original design.

The idea isn't necessarily that we'd scan your brain and upload you to a computer. We could replace pieces of your brain at a time while leaving the replacements inside your head (ala Ghost in the Shell), and it's only when you reach the point that you are fed up with your biological body breaking down that we actually remove it from your skull and connect it to a robot instead. And that solves a lot of the moral problems, since at that point your brain is just another part of you in the same way that a piercing might be considered part of you, not necessarily something that is running on somebody else's hardware.
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Graknorke

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #84 on: October 30, 2015, 04:51:27 am »

Unbroken chain of consciousness is a dumb idea. For real. There is no reason to think that matters.
It's all in the memories m8.
A video tape contains memory. Is it therefore conscious?
I was talking about how you decide whether they're the same person. Two people who think the same and have the same memories would literally be the same person.

And if you die in the process of this cloning, your "consciousness" dies with it.
But the "you" from your whole life before entering the chamber does live on, through the clone. It's only the one that got locked in the chamber after the fact that dies.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2015, 04:58:59 am by Graknorke »
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anzki4

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #85 on: October 30, 2015, 05:15:04 am »

And if you die in the process of this cloning, your "consciousness" dies with it.
But the "you" from your whole life before entering the chamber does live on, through the clone. It's only the one that got locked in the chamber after the fact that dies.
Well, you do live from the point of view of other people, from your own perspective you die.

Consider for example the scenario that the chamber doesn't have a window, but the procedure otherwise remains identical. Now in the few moments before you die, you are left to ponder if your clone continues your life afterwards or if something went wrong in the cloning process, or even if the whole thing was just a hoax in the first place. You have no way of knowing wheter your clone exists or not. Let's look at two scenarios.
 A: The clone does exist and lives your life exactly as you would have. The person in the chamber dies.
 B: The clone doesn't exist. The person in the chamber dies.
Both scenarios are exactly the same from the perspective of the person in the chamber; he dies and will have no knowledge on whether his clone exists or if it does, how will it live its life. It's only from the point of view of other people where the scenarios are different.
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Graknorke

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #86 on: October 30, 2015, 06:02:56 am »

Well there's the clone too. The clone is "you" from before entering the chamber. It's only after that point where there's any divergence. From the point of someone who hasn't yet been in the chamber and has no reason to think it won't work, there's nothing to be worried about. Besides the interests of someone who wants to clone you anyway.
Then that person "lives on" (can't really think of a better way to word that) in both a person who gets set free and one who's about to be killed. Obviously the viewpoints of those people is going to differ a lot.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #87 on: October 30, 2015, 08:05:48 am »

Are you guys never going to get tired of this inane nonsense?

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Descan

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #88 on: October 30, 2015, 10:03:22 am »

Well there's the clone too. The clone is "you" from before entering the chamber. It's only after that point where there's any divergence. From the point of someone who hasn't yet been in the chamber and has no reason to think it won't work, there's nothing to be worried about. Besides the interests of someone who wants to clone you anyway.
Then that person "lives on" (can't really think of a better way to word that) in both a person who gets set free and one who's about to be killed. Obviously the viewpoints of those people is going to differ a lot.
Except there's no reason to believe my subjective consciousness, my viewpoint as you put it, will 'leap' to the clone. If I myself step into the chamber, it will clone me and destroy me, I'm pretty clearly about to die. There'll be someone else with my memories running around, with a different viewpoint that happens to be similar to my own in every way leading up to the cloning. That doesn't mean it's me.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Thoughts on Technological Immortality
« Reply #89 on: October 30, 2015, 10:08:01 am »

I think that's actually exactly what means it's you.
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