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[martinuzz]

I don't believe the reasons/motives behind the wars are similar, what I do believe is similar is the attitude to civilian casualties.

Ukraine does not use it's civilians as human shields.

[Strongpoint]

I don't believe the reasons/motives behind the wars are similar, what I do believe is similar is the attitude to civilian casualties.

Ukraine does not use it's civilians as human shields.

Even if we accept Hamas's claims, the number of civilian casualties in Gaza is small considering population density, Hamas tactics and Egypt's cruel policy of not letting anyone flee Gaza. It is proof by itself that, on the strategic level, Israel makes steps to limit civilian casualties.

[wobbly]

Even if we accept Hamas's claims, the number of civilian casualties in Gaza is small considering population density, Hamas tactics and Egypt's cruel policy of not letting anyone flee Gaza. It is proof by itself that, on the strategic level, Israel makes steps to limit civilian casualties.

I guess its just a waste of time arguing with someone who wants to write off anything they don't want to see as "propaganda".

[Frumple]

Ukraine does not use it's civilians as human shields.

It's a hell of a thing when you're considering two different conflicts, and of the four relevant forces involved Ukraine's (well... maybe five and then ukraine and the west bank folks, I don't recall offhand mention of that particular bantustan getting up to that shit?) the only one that hasn't done that

Congrats ukraine, you've managed to hold yourself to a higher ethical standard in conflict than russia, israel, and hamas. You'd think that wouldn't be a high bar to clear but apparently it is.

[wobbly]

Egypt's cruel policy of not letting anyone flee Gaza.

I'm not going to dispute the cruel part, what I don't get is why you believe Palestinians from Gaza are more Egypt's problem then Israel's.

[Strongpoint]

Egypt's cruel policy of not letting anyone flee Gaza.

I'm not going to dispute the cruel part, .what I don't get is why you believe Palestinians from Gaza are more Egypt's problem then Israel's

Why? Well... 1) They are not enemies. 2) they share the same religion 3) they are extremely closely related.
 Also, if you believe that Israel is evil and genocidial, you don't ask that. Like you don't ask "why do you believe Ukrainians are more EU's problem than Russia's"

Do you believe Israel should start accepting refugees from Gaza and host them somewhere on their territory? Build camps for them. Maintain law and order in them with armed guards? And, considering that most won't go to Israel anyway, forcefully deport Palestinian women and children in such camps?

Or should Israel accept those in their cities, importing people who will gladly launch terror attacks?

Israel is in no position to assist those who want to leave Gaza and move to a safer place. Egypt is in such a position but chooses not to...

 

I can easily empathize with Palestinians there. It is easy to imagine neighbors of Ukraine closing borders in February 2022 and saying. "Nope. Die. Try to cross the border and we'll shoot. Keeping you alive is a Russian problem and responsibility."

It would be monstrous... but somehow it is ok in the Gaza case. All people worried about the deathtoll in Gaza (from American students to the UN) put around zero pressure on Egypt. As if Palestinians doesn't matter unlike hurting Israel. After all, more dead Palestinians = easier to tell that Israel is pure evil.

[wobbly]

Also, if you believe that Israel is evil and genocidial, you don't ask that.

And what if I don't believe Israel is evil and gencodical? Which I don't but current actions and current government and current official government statements are making me question the 2nd a little.

[wobbly]

Or should Israel accept those in their cities, importing people who will gladly launch terror attacks?

Should Egypt accept potential terrorists?

[hector13]

Also, if you believe that Israel is evil and genocidial, you don't ask that.

And what if I don't believe Israel is evil and gencodical? Which I don't but current actions and current government and current official government statements are making me question the 2nd a little.

Strongpoint is a Sith; if you don’t support Israel, you must hate them, with all that entails. There is no middle ground, only support or anti-semitism.

Or should Israel accept those in their cities, importing people who will gladly launch terror attacks?

Should Egypt accept potential terrorists?

Another of the issues is whether or not Israel will allow the displaced back into Gaza if they decide to leave. The safe money appears to be on “not”, and I don’t think Egypt wants to be complicit in that.

[Nirur Torir]

Do you believe Israel should start accepting refugees from Gaza and host them somewhere on their territory? Build camps for them.

That's the way it ends without a genocide. The UN could easily pony up the money to build cities, build hope, for them. People who have a future rarely strap bombs to themselves.
We'd apparently rather solve the problem by giving more bombs to Israel.

And, considering that most won't go to Israel anyway, forcefully deport Palestinian women and children in such camps?

Remember near the start of the conflict where Israel went "Hey, uninvolved civilians should go here for safety ... LOL psych get bombed n00bs."
Imagine if instead the first group got nice new apartments, good jobs building new cities for future waves, all the food they can eat, and new phones to send pictures back to their old neighbors. Sure, they know that the new phone has a tracking chip, but so what?

As if Palestinians doesn't matter unlike hurting Israel. After all, more dead Palestinians = easier to tell that Israel is pure evil.

It seems to me that current Israel standing policy is designed to radicalize as many Palestinians as possible against them (because "Look, an enemy is shooting us. I need to stay in power to fight them, and now that they're dying, there's more land for us"). Things will only continue to get worse while the current administration of Israel is in power.

Egypt's cruel policy of not letting anyone flee Gaza.

From a realpolitik standpoint, a government policy of basing people who want to violently retaliate against the ones who turned them into refugees, is a recipe for getting Israel to attack Egypt next.

[Il Palazzo]

I don't claim any in-depth understanding of Egypt's politics, but their recent history with the Muslim Brotherhood suggests to me that their refusal to open borders to a potential influx of radicals from an MB offshoot is not as arbitrarily cruel as it is being painted in Strongpoint's post.

[Strongpoint]

That's the way it ends without a genocide. The UN could easily pony up the money to build cities, build hope, for them. People who have a future rarely strap bombs to themselves.
We'd apparently rather solve the problem by giving more bombs to Israel.

If what I described would somehow happen, the world would scream that Israel established concentration camps. And it would actually qualify as such unless Israel ignores security and policing.

Also, strapping bombs is usually not about "no future", it is religious fanatism and genocidal hate deeply ingrained in the culture.

Remember near the start of the conflict where Israel went "Hey, uninvolved civilians should go here for safety ... LOL psych get bombed n00bs."

Israel never claimed that it won't bomb areas they suggest people to move in. They merely said - those areas are safer. It is not the same as entirely safe. And it was completely true. If Hamas respected "go there" zones, bombs wouldn't fall there at all.

Imagine if instead the first group got nice new apartments, good jobs building new cities for future waves, all the food they can eat, and new phones to send pictures back to their old neighbors. Sure, they know that the new phone has a tracking chip, but so what?

Imagined... Unless it is a concentration camp with severe security, It would result in hundreds of dead Jews from stabbing and other attacks. We are talking about people who, after their child's cancer was treated in an Israel hospital, say that they hope that their child will kill Jews in the future.

People living on the border with Gaza were among the most pro-Palestinian, pro-coexistence people of Israel. They hired Palestinians from Gaza, they treated them as equals. Result? Those people helped Hamas to kill, rape, loot. They actively participated in the process. You want to repeat the experience on a larger scale.

I don't claim any in-depth understanding of Egypt's politics, but their recent history with the Muslim Brotherhood suggests to me that their refusal to open borders to a potential influx of radicals from an MB offshoot is not as arbitrarily cruel as it is being painted in Strongpoint's post.

Valid point. I know that. Letting Palestinian refugees in wasn't a nice event for any country that did so. I totally understand not letting men of military age in.  Let women and small children in then. It is not zero potential terrorists but it mitigates security risks. Also, people who hate Hamas, the Palestinian cause, 

[Maximum Spin]

Ultimately I suppose it's a war between two different kinds of naive utopianism, which is why it never ends.

[Great Order]

Well, it happened again: I've been attacked (On Reddit) for saying Israel and Hamas are both cunts. In this case, apparently I'm a supporter of terrorism. I was also shadowbanned from the subreddit for this opinion, despite it being ostensibly a politically neutral subreddit.

I can't help but feel that people have been fed a false dichotomy that you *have* to be on one side or the other, and they've fallen for it hook, line and sinker, apparently lacking the critical thinking skills to adopt literally any other position including "I've no idea what's going on so I'm staying out of it". Instead everyone out there seems to think that Israel's either a saintly country or full to the brim of genocide-supporting dickheads, and Palestine is either full of faultless victims or else the Middle Eastern Nazi Germany.

It's so goddamn frustrating because you can't actually hold a conversation or argument about it with anyone without it rapidly devolving into accusations of supporting genocide or war crimes or civilian casualties or what-have-you.

[hector13]

How dare you try to bring nuance to the conversation.