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[peasant cretin]

Presuming time in combat will always be measured in ticks, a thing that appears to be advancing too quickly is the transition from Grab to Joint Lock.

Grab attack is [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:2:2]. This is relatively sound. Locking a joint up seems to have a prepare of 2 or maybe even lower. This is odd to say the least.
EDIT 9/18/15 4:09 EST: Didn't test chokes, but everything else is 2:2. It seems like Toady went with 2:2 for all things grappling. Great for throws/take downs, but a bit too quick for joint locks. Also any other edits I've made are in yellow.

A very quick transition from a grab to locking up a joint is either a thing of opportunity or based on a large enough skill disparity. There might not be room or reason to have that distinction in the combat system, so a flat change seems more in keeping with we have now. Slowing down the prepare/recover for the lock up, besides being more realistic, properly balances wrestling versus other aspects of combat.

I suggest locking a joint should be at least [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:4:4] with a sizable defensive penalty applied to the grappler making them an easier target. This way you/they'll have 2 chances to get free if quick attack.

Where we are now: if some one grabs you and you cannot break the grip because of size/strength, you need to assume next turn is joint lock (it may, it may not be, but this assumption is the most fatalistic and prepares you for that possible downward slide the combat will likely take). You have only two options: destroy the grabbing limb or make a kill shot. Of course, here you only have one swing and often the attack selection will be poor.

[AceSV]

I don't know, I've seen people shift through wrestrling/judo moves pretty quickly.  The whole timing system seems very abstract at the moment anyways.  It seems to me that a strong kick should be no slower than a strong punch, and certainly not slower than swinging a bronze maul around.  Theoretically, your strength should effect how quickly you can move your limbs or things in your limbs. 

[JesterHell696]

I hold the position that dwarf fortress first and foremost a simulation so your suggestion that in should be nerfed for "Balance" doesn't appeal to me.

[Witty]

It should be nerfed for realism's sake then. Right now, the entire system is just silly. I'm with OP on this one, a nerfing/rebalance is in order.

[JesterHell696]

Maybe its just me be but this

I'm with OP on this one, a nerfing/rebalance is in order.

seems to contradict this

It should be nerfed for realism's sake then.

Because a realistic simulation will be unbalanced.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anEuw8F8cpE

[Vattic]

JesterHell696: Balance doesn't have to mean all sides are equal, just correctly proportioned. Nobody was suggesting wrestling and armed combat should be balanced so that both are universally as useful. Reality isn't balanced as a competitive game might be, but it still makes sense to talk of balance. Often the balance is in favour of one thing or another and the OP thinks that in terms of the grab-lock transition the balance is too far in favour of the wrestler because it's unrealistically fast.

[JesterHell696]

JesterHell696: Balance doesn't have to mean all sides are equal, just correctly proportioned. Nobody was suggesting wrestling and armed combat should be balanced so that both are universally as useful. Reality isn't balanced as a competitive game might be, but it still makes sense to talk of balance. Often the balance is in favour of one thing or another and the OP thinks that in terms of the grab-lock transition the balance is too far in favour of the wrestler because it's unrealistically fast.

I will admit that this might just be an issue of semantics on my part because I see the term balance as an artificial mechanic to make all options equally valid which is something I oppose.

Also where OP says [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:2:2] doesn't mean much to me because I've only recently started messing around with raws and have only messed with creature castes and civ entity's so I'm not exactly sure what it means, I just focused on the part stood out to me which was.

properly balances wrestling versus other aspects of combat.

Which I felt this Implied the "artificial" balance I mentioned earlier which I think is where my problem is, it seems I may have jumped the gun and that's my bad so I apologize.

So going back though the OP's post he also states that joint lock are unrealistically fast so I decided to look up joint lock demonstrations on you tube. 


Ninjutsu: https://youtu.be/E08ea-AeUiQ

Shaolin kung fu: https://youtu.be/-59-hs0MpHI

Joint Lock Flow: https://youtu.be/TFTFyCPP_O0

More Lock Flow: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DpbACXB5nvI


All these moves look fast enough to me that you would only have one chance to get out and the game does give you two chances, the 1st is when they get a hold and the 2nd when they lock the joint, looking this over I don't think the issue is speed, further down I think the OP located the source of the problem.

Where we are now: if some one grabs you and you cannot break the grip because of size/strength, you need to assume next turn is joint lock (it may, it may not be, but this assumption is the most fatalistic and prepares you for that possible downward slide the combat will likely take). You have only two options: destroy the grabbing limb or make a kill shot. Of course, here you only have one swing and often the attack selection will be poor.

I think the issue is that there is no mechanic for getting out other then a size/strength check and that attacking someone who has a hold of you is no different then attacking them when their free standing, a possible solution is making it so that the fighter and other relevant CC skills add/enable "reversals" that currently don't exists in-game, slightly changing how it calculates attacking someone who has a hold of you and reducing bone [PAIN_RECEPTORS:50] would be a more realistic response then making locks slower.

That being said I don't know how fast [ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:2:2] is and if it is unrealistically fast then reworking is necessary to maintain the integrity of the simulation.

Hopefully this is more constructive.

[Vattic]

Fair play to you and no problem. Makes sense you'd think that as balance in reference to games usually does mean unrealistic and artificial limitations in the name of fairness.

ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:2:2 basically means there is a 2 tick gap before and after the attack. A tick in adventure mode is a second and in fort mode is just over a minute.

I'd have to agree that the time seems enough and maybe too much. It's hard to say for sure as I've not seen locks used much in actual combat. The only two, sort of, examples I can think of are the police, where it seems very fast (though often more than one officer), and cage fighting, where it varies greatly (especially when grappling on the ground). Part of the issue with watching people training is that there is often a level of compliance and the stakes are not so high.

A related issue is how easy it is to step just inside sword range and grab someone. You can't exploit the extra reach of your weapon and keep them out of wrestling range.

[JesterHell696]

I can understand that DnD or Starcraft are balanced because they are cooperative and competitive games but DF is a fantasy world simulator and after the nerfing The Elder Scroll's got I really don't want the realism of DF to be dropped for balance.

An adventure mode tick is a second? that's interesting, thanks for the info.

I agree that training video aren't the best source but its not like they film actual combat situations so it was the best I could find with searching the net for hours, one of the videos I linked talks about locks and grapples on the ground being very different.

I know that weapon range has been a problem for a while with polearms and I don't imagine it'll be addressed until multi-tile creatures are to be tackled.

[Neonivek]

Dwarf Fortress isn't a game of balance.

The only sort of balance the game should have is that if the game presents something as an option it needs to at least be viable, even if it is in a limited sphere. It is why punches shouldn't really bust through armor unless the person somehow has inhuman strength... but someone with punching skills still has other things they can do.

Outside of that, realism wins the day... and while Wrestling is an incredibly powerful and useful tool in real life... It isn't quite as amazing as it is presented in Dwarf Fortress.

[peasant cretin]

I probably shouldn't have used the word balance. Sorry for that.

Anyways, for our purposes here from the placeholder Adventure Mode perspective, I'd go with time is combat speed. Combat speed is manipulating ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:x:x.

The raws tell us most weapons and natural attacks (punches, bites, gores, etc.) are ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:3:3. Two exceptions to this, kicks and whip attacks, are ATTACK_PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:4:4.

Aimed attacks will add or subtract from the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER.

The types of aimed weapon/natural attacks are:
Quick Attack  subtracts 1 tick from both the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Standard Attack  does not add or subtract anything from PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Heavy Attack  will add 1 tick to both the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Precise Attack  will add *2* ticks to the PREPARE and 0 ticks to RECOVER
Wild Attack  subtracts 1 tick from the PREPARE, but adds *2* ticks to RECOVER

The fastest offensive maneuver (whether Quick Attack or Grab) will have a PREPARE_AND_RECOVER of 2:2, while the slowest will be some type of modified kick/whip attack in Vanilla.

The significance of 2:2 PREPARE_AND_RECOVER when applied to joint locks is your mileage in regard to how you think the game should simulate these things within the spectrum of proficiency.

The game currently has grapplers functioning better than they should for me since time/ticks are at their lowest, yet the skill level may also be at its shallowest, but is still producing good result (ie your peasant with novice/adequate skill kneebarring the local hammerdwarf, so you can help yourself to his steel cap).

[ShinQuickMan]

Keep in mind that even wrestling attempts after a grab have failure rates, which is especially notable at the lower levels.

[JesterHell696]

I probably shouldn't have used the word balance. Sorry for that.

Its at least partially my fault, I just heard balance and went https://youtu.be/6h7clHdeg6g

The types of aimed weapon/natural attacks are:
Quick Attack  subtracts 1 tick from both the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Standard Attack  does not add or subtract anything from PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Heavy Attack  will add 1 tick to both the PREPARE_AND_RECOVER
Precise Attack  will add *2* ticks to the PREPARE and 0 ticks to RECOVER
Wild Attack  subtracts 1 tick from the PREPARE, but adds *2* ticks to RECOVER

Nice Info, thank you kindly.

The significance of 2:2 PREPARE_AND_RECOVER when applied to joint locks is your mileage in regard to how you think the game should simulate these things within the spectrum of proficiency.

The game currently has grapplers functioning better than they should for me since time/ticks are at their lowest, yet the skill level may also be at its shallowest, but is still producing good result (ie your peasant with novice/adequate skill kneebarring the local hammerdwarf, so you can help yourself to his steel cap).

If I understand this correctly your problem is that a novice wrestler is inherently faster then a adequate hammerdwarf because of PREPARE_AND_RECOVER:2:2?

If this is the case then I kind of agree but mostly disagree because I see an unarmed attack as being naturally faster then a armed attack and the "skill" difference comes into play though "Quick Attack" which lowers the ticks required making them the same speed and while the novice can quick attack as well he's less likely to succeeded, unless he's attacking a non-hostile because it is easy to sucker punch someone.

[Vattic]

Four seconds to kick and three to punch seem unrealistically high to me. I suspect the prepare means the creature is adjusting his stance to then pull of the attack; The attack taking only a fraction of the time. Then you have really long recovery periods which are harder to rationalise. I suspect there was half an eye on reality and half on gameplay in the design of this.

Keep in mind that even wrestling attempts after a grab have failure rates, which is especially notable at the lower levels.

I wonder what factors play into whether a wrestling move fails. Ideally it would take into account relative skill, strength, size, and more.

At first I was in favour of the suggestion, but I'm not so sure any more. While I can see the flow of combat in regards to this is a bit odd I can't tell exactly where the problem lies. I suspect the ease of entering wrestling and the lack of counters are bigger contributors. Perhaps if you try and fail to break their grip it could sometimes make it harder for them to then lock your joint by: increasing prepare time for other wrestling moves related to that grab, requiring a new 'adjust grip' move be performed before other moves can be carried out, or a decrease in the chance the lock will succeed. I prefer the first two as it would buy you time to do things like counter grab and lock while the last wouldn't. On top of this grabs should really have quality levels more generally so instead of failing completely you can end up with a poor grip that you can't do much with unless you adjust it.

Still it might take too few ticks to do these moves. It makes sense that if you are to have a single time to attack (not ideal IMO) then it should be roughly average. It shouldn't hurt to raise it and see how it handles.

[Neonivek]

Four seconds to kick and three to punch seem unrealistically high to me.

My knowledge of both kind of tells me the bigger issue is "What kind of punch?" and "What kind of kick?" it kind of has a lot more vagueness then simply a "Sword slash" because unless you do a particularly flowery sword slash it generally takes the same amount of time (with the same sword of course). At least when talking about a "standard attack"

But what is a standard punch? Is it a Jab? Is it a straight? Is it a Haymaker? Palm Strike?

I am going to assume the standard proper punch is probably a semi-slow straight, it fits the idea.

While the standard kick would probably be a lower leg snap (not proper terminology).

Of which... Seems about right. At least in terms of the time variance. Since ticks are not seconds. Though personally kicks are not all that slow to come out and can equal 'the standard punch', they do have much more recovery then a punch does though.