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Yes.

4 (66.7%)

No.

1 (16.7%)

Yes, but. . . (comment how, below)

1 (16.7%)

Total Members Voted: 6

Voting closed: August 31, 2016, 04:23:26 pm

[~Neri]

No problem~

[Insanegame27]

Neri, allow me to explain my 2:00 AM reasoning behind the Elves getting natural skills. Yes, they do get a massive magic discount. However, I'm looking at this from an IC perspective.

If magic is so innate to elves, their whole society revolves around magic and they’re still considered teenagers by the time they turn 100 years old, they have a lot of time to be innately magical. I can’t recall if anyone else gave their Elf age, but Reserti’s 84 years old and considered the equivalent of a teenager. This raises the question of ‘How is it possible to have an elf who knows no magic if they live (effectively) forever and their whole society revolves around magic?’ That’s where an OOC issue becomes an IC one (or vice versa). I can accept the removal of the other skills I suggested, but giving them starting levels in magic just makes sense.
Onto bows: To date, the only movies I have seen where elves don’t use bows as a matter of course are those where the elves are midget-elves and santa-elves and/or both. I would be fine with this getting the axe, but I’m just explaining my reasoning here.
Animal skills I’m more than happy to give the chop to. This was only influenced by DF elves being one with nature and Eragon elves functionally the same.
All the same, I did prolly give them too much skills to start off with. But I think giving them 1 starting level in two disciplines and (1 level in bows OR making bows an easy skill OR both) would be perfectly acceptable/explanation. I mean, Kobolds got one of the most handwavey abilities I have ever seen as well as 16 points of skills for free (that’s 4 levels of magic). The proposed skills for elves are logical. I mean, they have ~100 years before they’re considered adults, and there’s no explanation as to why an elf would not know magic. ‘They chose not to indulge in it in their childhood’ is a bad excuse IMO, but the only one I can imagine as even partially valid, and there are major holes in the explanation.
Even if you put all of their starting skill points into magic (which leaves them without a mundane method of attack), the most you can have is a skill level 5, which is slightly above comfortable for everyday use, and is only one discipline. From an IC POV this does not make sense. "Hi, I'm [elf name]. I'm 500 years old and can cast magic as though it were an everyday thing to you humans. I can't do anything else. At all."

[~Neri]

Frankly. We're dealing with balance here.

Kobolds are Very Weak. They're good at exactly what they're supposed to do and not much else. They have shit stats across the board otherwise. They get quite a few free skills and a very powerful One Use Per Day ability Specifically because they're so weak and otherwise would not be competitive in an environment where literally everything, including the trees wants to eat your delicious faceflesh.

Would you teach a child prone to tantrums how to shoot fireballs? I think not. Would you teach a child how to open gaping rifts in existence? I think not. Elves have very Slow lives. It isn't that they're considered young despite having adult bodies, it's that they're Physically And Mentally young. A 22 year old elf would be the equivalent of a human toddler both physically And mentally. They don't age like humans. They don't mentally progress like humans. They aren't humans. They are literally a xenos race. The similarities end once you get past the surface appearance. When they're Adults their stats are across the board, somewhat superior to humans. They don't Need extra skills. An elf isn't going to start learning complex things until it's at least 50 by human standards. It flat out wouldn't be mentally capable until then. And at that point it's still Really Fucking Young by elven standards.

Similar to how dwarves sorta look like bearded humans until you cut one open and find drastically different internal processes, the same goes for elves. They just flat out Aren't human and applying a human concept of time to them really doesn't work.

An elf is most definitely capable of going its life without learning magic. Just look at the Elven Priesthood, they use Divinity provided Miracles, not magic. Or a number of Elven Craftsmen who don't have a need to use magic when there are plenty of others to handle that for them. Just because something is innate does not mean it'll be learned. A human is an innately social creature. If said human is locked up for all its life and never sees another person, it will never use the instinct provided social ability. It won't even know that's a concept it can use. Similarly, the difference between a magic user and non Magi is primarily a matter of perception. The nonmagi won't ever see things from the Magi's perspective without actually using magic of some kind. It isn't just handwave and spoopy magic happens. You're literally ripping existence and filling the gap with your Will and Mind. To do that takes a very drastic shift in perspective. People don't just Stumble onto that without trying. Elves have an easier time then most races because their minds are Built to perceive reality as such. (hence granting them the discount in magic skills), however unless an elf actually goes out of their way to learn it. They won't learn it.

[Maegil]

Since you were using Tolkien's elves as baseline, I may remind you that except for the ones who left the march early and never learned technology, the elves were as likely to use a sword or spear as a bow.
I agree on the OOC/IC issue with skills, that's a perennial problem with every system that includes long lived races. The common solution is to just ignore the problem. If you don't, you end up with races as unbalanced as the Noldor in Middle-Earth - absolutely OP, who only didn't defeat Melkor because of geography and his hordes' immense breeding rates; even then, there was Fingolfin going one-on-one with him and giving him a permanent limp...

[~Neri]

Frankly Tolkien elves (and species as a whole) aren't a good baseline. They aren't alien enough. They're functionally reskinned human+'s. As a result, we aren't using such.

[Insanegame27]

The only problem with what you're saying now, Neri, is that if someone chooses to elf and not mage, then they're at a disadvantage. Does not address the point that a 500-year-old elf to whom magic is an everyday part of life leaves only 3 points to spare for other things. I would still think that an elf could learn a basic magical discipline from a relatively young age, just like (most of) us humans are taught to use technology from a young age IRL because it's useful and ingrained into our culture. You could give any kid on the street an ipad and they'd be able to unlock it and open and play a game on it, for an example of how culture influences skill.
RE: kobolds are very weak. We just had 3 elves disabled and possibly delayed the mission by an exploding microwave.
RE: would you teach... : For the same reasons that humans teach high-school children chemistry or physics or whatnot. So they can eventually throw fireballs around at will if needed. Mind I remind you that the elves are at war or nearly at war with the dwarves? I agree that they wouldn't teach a 22-year-old how to throw fireballs around, but an 84 year old (about 17 human mental age) would be taught something of magic.


@Maegli: I was using a mixture of Tolkien, Eragon and at least ten other elf-variants.

[~Neri]

A 500 year old elf will likely pick up some form of magic. You however are not a 500 year old elf. You're the equivalent of a teenager. Teenager does not = skilled.

Unlike technology. Magic requires a Drastic mindset shift compared to the normal way of thinking. It's not a Very Hard skill for no reason. Your attempts to compare magic and tech really don't work because they Aren't the same. Any random human hobo could use an ipad. Any random elf hobo could not shoot fireballs. They flat out aren't the same thing. It isn't second nature because it's Not nature. Magic is a Defiance of nature. It Should Not Be Yet Is. In all honesty I'd personally like magic to be a 5 point skill group to reflect the sheer difficulty behind it that you don't seem to be grasping. However for balance reasons that isn't going to happen.

Re: Kobolds VS Elves: The elves received surface level damage, they aren't significantly injured, they failed their con rolls. They have had functionally no experience with major pain throughout their youth. Getting stabbed in thirtyseven places at once with no armor is going to hurt. They aren't a seasoned gate team that has been horrifically injured before and can casually go through spare legs like it's a bargain sale at the Leg Depot. The elves'll be on their feet in no time once the medics heal em.

Re: Would I teach: No. Physics and chemistry are not taught to children with the intent of teaching them how to create bombs. They are taught to teach children how the universe works. Where are you getting the idea that it is?! What is wrong with your teacher if this is something you legitimately believe is the norm and not just being a devils advocate?! No. I would not teach children how to rend reality and summon eldritch horrors to consume the village. That's a terrible idea and anyone who thinks it's smart deserves what's coming for them.

[zomara0292]

"Hey mum! Look what muh teacher taught me in school today."

*summons a Daemon of the Higher Planes bent on consuming all life.*
"She helped me with that to turn my C- into a B."

[somemildmanneredidiot]

In one of the Space Odyssey books, they ended up finding shark like creatures on another planet. They had similar shaping to sharks because it's apparently an efficient shaoe for sea life, but if you dissected the not-shark and did a genome analysis of it, it probably wouldn't be similar to a shark much at all.

That's about the level of difference between native Gaians and Terran humans from what I can tell.

In regards to Kobolds being very weak and elves being knocked out by an exploding microwave (so far my favorite part of this game by the way), look at base stats. Kobolds have 65 points of stats with their lowest being 5 and their highest being 14. Elves have 85 or 87 points of stats with their lowest being 6 and their highest being 16. Twice. Kobolds get 8 points of average skills and a unique escape which explains how they aren't extinct, and Elves get a discount on one of the most powerful and versatile abilities possible.

The main distinguishing factor between a PC elf and a 500 year elf is that the 500 year elf has acquired XP over time to develop their skills, while a PC elf is exceptional and has 15 skill points to toss around.

[vkiNm]

Heading home from work now, will post more later.

[Prophet]

((Ok. Thanks vkiNm. I just wanted to make sure.))

[somemildmanneredidiot]

Not going to be able to respond for several hours due to human morality and required unconsciousness. Just an fyi for why the sentient vermin isn't commenting on the fly discussion. Also Insane, I edited in an answer about why the microwave may have exploded if Res cares about that. Sincerely, I'm fine with conversation topics being dropped, but thought the editing it in may have been missed because editing.

[Insanegame27]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Bay12CastleFoxhoundSquad
I made a thing guys. Feel free to add to it. I have no idea why LordPorkins, Insanegame27 and NPC are brokenlinked or even linked at all.

[piratejoe]

I now am wondering, did vigil roll a crit fail or did the gunner roll a crit success, probably the latter but still. Either way, SNAFU.

[zomara0292]

Vigil wasnt hit.