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Author Topic: Fallout 4: It Just Works  (Read 837788 times)

KingofstarrySkies

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5340 on: February 15, 2016, 01:05:46 am »

Yes, they are. They take any technology they goddamn please because they don't think people are smart enough to use it. They are often wrong in this matter.
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SOLDIER First

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5341 on: February 15, 2016, 01:08:25 am »

Danse is one guy, so the rest of the giant mass of BoS in the Commonwealth might not be content with leaving the robots/etc. in peace. I mean, look at Liberty Prime. He got blown up twice and they won't let him die. He never even went to Alaska

The Brotherhood literally enter the Commonwealth after the Minutemen have existed for years and proceed to
a. Do nothing
b. Get blown up
c. Get blown up by their own robot
d. Get blown up a different way, I think
e. Blow up stuff and then do nothing
..which are all ending-dependent. They don't save anyone. They don't give a molerat's ass about Quincy or Diamond City or anywhere or anyone in the Commonwealth except themselves.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5342 on: February 15, 2016, 01:39:12 am »

Yes, they are. They take any technology they goddamn please because they don't think people are smart enough to use it. They are often wrong in this matter.
It has nothing to do with Intelligence. It has to do with responsibility. They full well know there are folks smart enough to use it. Hence the whole, 'world nearly ending a few times since the bomb' thing.

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BFEL

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5343 on: February 15, 2016, 01:54:32 am »

They're going to remove super mutants... And ghouls. Not just ferals, all ghouls. And they steal technology, both of which mean goodbye Goodneighbor.
Uh... You realize that they're gonna need a lot of help or a lot of time to actually do that, right? And they won't make the walls unnecessary, because walls are always necessary.
The BoS doenst have a history of attacking ghoul settlements. Why would they start now? They dont like the ghouls, and can't stand them, but they don't attack civilians.
As for stealing technology. They've been known to do this, but most of the tech they have isn't stolen. And their actions are closet to noble as you're gonna get in the Commonwealth. Its very hard to argue down that misuse and arrogance of technology ended the world, and the continue misuse and arrogance of technology has come close to ending it a few more times since then.
No its not hard to argue against that. Because that is total bullshit thought up by a madman.
Technology didn't end the Fallout world.
People like Maxson did.

On the day the bombs fell there was undoubtedly some American or Chinese general in some bunker making speeches that sounded an AWFUL LOT like the ones he gives, right before they pushed the button.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5344 on: February 15, 2016, 01:59:49 am »

Chinese struck first.
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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5345 on: February 15, 2016, 02:01:22 am »

And then, because of destructive hubris, America nuked them back. The smart ones (like House) had nuclear defense systems, but the rest of the country just shot off more fucking missiles.
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5346 on: February 15, 2016, 03:00:51 am »

The BoS in fallout 4 are basically the start of an autocratic empire. They go where they please and do what they please in the name of their own goals and remove any obstacles in their way because in their mind, might makes right.

Sure, they try to justify it and rationalize it but in the end, they're bullies, plain and simple. They would stabilize the Commonwealth, that much is certain, but they would turn its residents into lackeys who have the option of either cooperating or being killed off as a "potential threat to the stability of the Commonwealth". All the while the BoS is claiming all advanced technology for themselves under the pretense of "keeping it from being misused". The best way to prevent misuse is education and careful monitoring, not taking things away.

Oh and what makes people so sure they'd stabilize the region? On the Prydwen, you can access a computer which contains the letters soldiers wrote home (i.e. the Capital Wasteland). In one of them, a soldier orders his loved ones to pretty much sleep with a gun beside them in case of trouble. Does not seem all that stable to me.

But anyway, the BoS would quite literally keep the Commonwealth stupid and terrified of their might under the pretense of keeping it "stable". Textbook autocratic regime stuff.

Spoiler: for BoS ending (click to show/hide)

Likewise, the Institute would also like to keep the institute stupid, paranoid and terrified under the pretense of doing "the best" for them. Sure, they might make it a blossoming pre-war paradise in a couple centuries, but that's a maybe. The commonwealth's population would certainly not appreciate it and neither would the Synth (who are lest we forget manufactured human slaves).


The minutemen, on the other hand are a very reactionary force, that much is true. But as we know from history, first kingdoms and nation states have been born out of the need for protection which brought multiple settlements together.

The minutemen are precisely that, only with far more autonomy. Under the proper leadership (a charismatic, strong and determined leader such as for example the Sole Survivor when they are doing the Minutemen quests) they could unite the Commonwealth into a formidable, stable nation.

And even if they don't, they are a strong peacekeeping force that could easily take on the raiders and super mutants of the Commonwealth and win.
Spoiler: mild Institute spoiler (click to show/hide)
The biggest problems would be dealing with the Gunners and Children of the Atom.

Now Gunners are a very typical Bethesdaism. They are a highly organized, well equipped faction who are there to give the player a meaty mid-to-late game challenge, but make no bloody sense from a worldbuilding perspective. They are clearly intelligent and organized, unlike your typical raiders. Yet they have no discernible goal or objective. What they do is build highly fortified and well defended encampments in the middle of nowhere and then proceed to sit inside them and do bugger-all except take potshots at anyone passing by. If they wanted the money, they should run protection rackets, offer really expensive safe havens for merchants and do mercenary work for the settlements now that the Minutemen aren't around to do it out of the kindness of their heart. But no, they just sit there in their fortresses attacking random people and generally making no bloody sense.

The minutemen would be in for quite a fight to take them on and it'd probably take several bloody, exhaustive campaigns. Or they could do it diplomatically (in a reasonable world, they would but this is a Bethesda world so they most likely won't).

Now the Children of Atom are a much smaller group but a very significant threat. They are equipped with powerful weaponry (the Gamma Gun will wreck your shit unless you've got some serious radiation protection) and are on a religious crusade to purge the unbelievers from the Commonwealth. Again, a tough fight for the Minutemen.

So, the Minutemen could potentially stabilize the Commonwealth, but it'd take them longer than the Brotherhood (even longer still if they'd pissed the BoS off and had to take them on as well). However unlike the Brotherhood, they do not seem hell bent on stripping the commonwealth of its technology and then keeping it "stable" by brutally crushing anyone who dares oppose them. However, their overall behaviour seems to be very dependent on the whims of their current leader. Then again, so does the Brotherhood's.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5347 on: February 15, 2016, 03:08:33 am »

I've got to say, most of your complaints about the BoS are due to Bethesda's blatant ambivalence towards them.  It's pretty clear that one of the main writers or the director really likes them, and another writer hates them with mindless passion.  If the writing of the BoS in F4 were actually consistent (and it really isn't) then I could see my way to agreeing with you, but since it's a typical clusterfuck, I have to call an assertion that the BoS are trying to be dictators flat-out wrong.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5348 on: February 15, 2016, 03:11:11 am »

The BoS has always had the ability to acquire territory and become an empire. (Of any sort.) And they never have. To the point where it has to be assumed that its against their religion.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5349 on: February 15, 2016, 03:12:35 am »

They are soldiers.  They don't have religion, they have doctrine.  It amounts to the same kind of blind devotion, but it has nothing to do with worship.
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Yoink

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5350 on: February 15, 2016, 03:20:16 am »

Brotherhood good guys

Everyone else bad guys

Edit: I fucking wish the radiant quests actually worked properly more of the time.
Half the time it gives me the same damn quest at the same damn place, where I already subjugated the populace there just a few minutes prior.
Also I just realised I still haven't gotten around to playing this again since last time.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 03:22:20 am by Yoink »
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MrWiggles

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5351 on: February 15, 2016, 03:24:17 am »

In Fo1 and 2, they were kinda shown to be a religious order. Thats why they're called Paladins.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5352 on: February 15, 2016, 03:29:52 am »

Kinda, sorta, but not really.  It's mostly a show they put on to keep uneducated wastelanders at bay, once inside it becomes painfully apparent (through conversation and holotapes/terminals) that they are highly educated, well-rounded individuals who happen to be engaged in the arduous and slightly questionable task of collecting advanced technology, archiving it for later, and keeping destructive tech out of the hands of people who would misuse it.  This of course leads them to do things that many would look at as 'stealing technology', which is a silly claim as they also do things like help maintain useful, safe, technologies for some wasteland communities (The Hub, Junktown, the entire NCR.)

They are however jerks who don't care about people who aren't part of their organization, but that suits me just fine.

Edit: I'd also like to reiterate, in the main-timeline games (Black Isle/Obsidian) only the combat arm are called Paladins, the technical arm are knights, and the scholastic arm are scribes.  Elder isn't even a rank, its a descriptor for a member of the Brotherhood who has lived long enough to no longer be suitable for field work.  The elders (plural, there are more than one) serve as a council who direct the BoS.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 03:33:44 am by NullForceOmega »
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scriver

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5353 on: February 15, 2016, 04:35:50 am »

There's also the thing that while democratic self-governing would be preferable, an autocratic dictatorship would still be an improvement over the situation. Most of the "first kingdoms and nations" krevsin mentioned were just that - and even where some democratic/together-ruling traditions remained those were limited to the ruler/nobility/warrior caste. Romans brought peace to the Mediterranean not by being selfless and offering unity and common defense but by brutally conquering and, enslaving, and sometimes even committing genocide on the surrounding peoples. They may have been a republic in Rome, but to the conquered peoples they were nothing but oppressive overlords.

Now, I vastly prefer the Minutemen over the BoS not just because of them being more sympathic and their superior fashion sense but also because their more civil and hopeful view of the world. However, the thing about the Minutemen is that even if they unite every single settlement in the Commonwealth, they would still be putting the Commonwealth under the rule of a military junta - and they would rule the commonwealth in practice, because they would be the single most stabilizing and uniting force there. They're just the preferable choice because they consist of people actually from the Commonwealth standing up and defending themselves and each other, because in practice the choice between the BoS and the Minutemen comes down to one between a military rule by people from a completely different part of the world with no ties to you, or a military rule by your neighbours and relatives who know you, care for you or at least sympathize with you, and hopefully understand that working together is in all of your self-interests. The real issue becomes how to prevent the Minutemen from changing from that into a warrior-nobility caste over time.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 04:37:27 am by scriver »
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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5354 on: February 15, 2016, 05:05:29 am »

It is worth bearing in mind that if the Institute takes over they do defend the people of the Commonwealth to an extent. Not as much as the Brotherhood or Minutemen do, but Synth patrols do start killing some raiders and mutants.
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