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Author Topic: Fallout 4: It Just Works  (Read 837759 times)

Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5355 on: February 15, 2016, 05:24:26 am »

I've got to say, most of your complaints about the BoS are due to Bethesda's blatant ambivalence towards them.  It's pretty clear that one of the main writers or the director really likes them, and another writer hates them with mindless passion.  If the writing of the BoS in F4 were actually consistent (and it really isn't) then I could see my way to agreeing with you, but since it's a typical clusterfuck, I have to call an assertion that the BoS are trying to be dictators flat-out wrong.
I know, i'm just desperately trying to make sense of the typical Bethesdaistic clusterfuck they like to call worldbuilding  :P

This way, if I squint hard enough, BoS's motivations and actions actually make sense.

My personal stance on the factions is that none are inherently superior to each other and "the best choice" mostly depends on what you as a person think is good for the Commonwealth. Kinda like NV only without an ANARCHY option and worse writing.

edit:
Kinda, sorta, but not really.  It's mostly a show they put on to keep uneducated wastelanders at bay, once inside it becomes painfully apparent (through conversation and holotapes/terminals) that they are highly educated, well-rounded individuals who happen to be engaged in the arduous and slightly questionable task of collecting advanced technology, archiving it for later, and keeping destructive tech out of the hands of people who would misuse it.  This of course leads them to do things that many would look at as 'stealing technology', which is a silly claim as they also do things like help maintain useful, safe, technologies for some wasteland communities (The Hub, Junktown, the entire NCR.)

They are however jerks who don't care about people who aren't part of their organization, but that suits me just fine.

Edit: I'd also like to reiterate, in the main-timeline games (Black Isle/Obsidian) only the combat arm are called Paladins, the technical arm are knights, and the scholastic arm are scribes.  Elder isn't even a rank, its a descriptor for a member of the Brotherhood who has lived long enough to no longer be suitable for field work.  The elders (plural, there are more than one) serve as a council who direct the BoS.
I like to view the eastern coast BoS as a completely separate outgrowth of the Western BoS that shares only nomenclature with its progenitor. Makes the whole thing a much more enjoyable experience.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 05:28:04 am by Krevsin »
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MrWiggles

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5356 on: February 15, 2016, 07:26:43 am »

It is worth bearing in mind that if the Institute takes over they do defend the people of the Commonwealth to an extent. Not as much as the Brotherhood or Minutemen do, but Synth patrols do start killing some raiders and mutants.
Do they stop replacing folks with Synths? Did they reveal everyone who was a synth?
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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5357 on: February 15, 2016, 08:19:39 am »

It is worth bearing in mind that if the Institute takes over they do defend the people of the Commonwealth to an extent. Not as much as the Brotherhood or Minutemen do, but Synth patrols do start killing some raiders and mutants.
Do they stop replacing folks with Synths? Did they reveal everyone who was a synth?

Probably to the former, since it becomes an unnecessary expense, though it's not actually discussed in game. No to the latter.

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Yoink

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5358 on: February 15, 2016, 10:47:14 am »

Yoink, trust me. Finish the quest. I guarantee you'll like how it turns out, especially if you make the decision I think you will.

Just, uh. Beware of the buggy one-off mechanic.
Aw, man. You mean I can trade one incredibly irritating, poorly written faction for another incredibly irritating, poorly written faction?
Where's my Option C: Kill everyone in the room apart from myself and maybe my companion?
When did the whole 'inexplicably unkillable NPC weaklings' nonsense become a thing, anyway? Just about every Beth game seems to have the same issue.

This game's pretty shithouse without mods. I say again, I kinda regret ever defending Bethesda.
Well, Fallout 3 was actually quite good, in my opinion. But this thing is terrible, it has all the same problems and adds a whole bunch more.
Punching robots is fun, and the character creator is good, but everything past that has been pretty rubbish.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 10:49:27 am by Yoink »
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5359 on: February 15, 2016, 10:57:16 am »

Eh, I find Fallout 4 much more agreeable than Fallout 3. At least the world kinda tries to make sense instead of just being a rollercoaster of "HEY YOU KNOW WHAT WOULD BE A NEAT IDEA? A TOWN FULL OF CHILDREN!" and the main plot is not completely and utterly stupid and does not feel completely irrelevant to anything that's going on.
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Glloyd

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5360 on: February 15, 2016, 01:33:49 pm »

I dunno, I couldn't finish the game. I got bored before even finding Valentine. To be fair, that was 20 something hours in, but it just didn't capture me as much as New Vegas did.

SOLDIER First

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5361 on: February 15, 2016, 01:35:14 pm »

It honestly baffles me how someone could play twenty hours, not even get to the second quest in the main story, and then get bored and quit.
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5362 on: February 15, 2016, 01:37:25 pm »

It honestly baffles me how someone could play twenty hours, not even get to the second quest in the main story, and then get bored and quit.
Bethesda games are weird like that. On my second playthrough I spent nearly 50 hours before getting around to that particular quest.
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Ivefan

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5363 on: February 15, 2016, 01:57:15 pm »

It honestly baffles me how someone could play twenty hours, not even get to the second quest in the main story, and then get bored and quit.
Because running around randomly and doing random shit is much more enjoyable than enduring Bethplot?

In morrowing i accidentially sold the letter that introduces the main plot and i didn't feel like i had missed anything when i stopped playing.
In Oblivin I finished the main quest, thought it sucked and then modded the game into... Oblivion and had fun running around doing random stuff.
In fallout 3 I started the game, Disliked everything and quit.
In Skyrim I only did whatever main quest i needed to unlock features.
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5364 on: February 15, 2016, 02:04:00 pm »

I mostly play F4 as a power armor collection simulator at this point honestly, the plot is just bad.  On the other hand my main game has nearly a hundred suits collected and that number increases every time I play.
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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5365 on: February 15, 2016, 02:21:55 pm »

The Morrowind main quest was actually good, though.
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5366 on: February 15, 2016, 02:23:12 pm »

Shamefully it would appear it was the exception rather than the norm. And even it had some quite daft moments.
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nenjin

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5367 on: February 15, 2016, 04:21:39 pm »

It honestly baffles me how someone could play twenty hours, not even get to the second quest in the main story, and then get bored and quit.

About 60 hours here and I haven't even been to Diamond City, or whatever that big cluster fuck south of me is. I've literally crawled over the entire northern half of the map above the line it demarcates.

I've ALWAYS been a neutral in Bethesda games, every single one. It tries so hard to get you invested in their storylines and my first instinct as a player is to reject it. Imma guy who woke up hundreds of years after my life died, or who was dragged from their previous life and thrust into a new one. Me ignoring their main questline is the ultimate expression of my independence and choice as a player and as a character in the game world. From that vantage point I can take a dispassionate view of the politics and conflicts of the times, because I'm still ultimately a stranger to this world. Trying to find:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If Bethesda really, really put the work into their quests, it would be the best position to play the game from IMO. Observing the state of a conflict and taking surgical action to resolve the conflict in the way you feel best serves your interests or the interests of the world. Instead they have hundreds of quests with an A (kill one side), B (kill the other side) and C (do nothing and/or take a specific alternative) option. Which is alright. But it doesn't motivate me to jump into their quests. The morality choices only make sense to me in Beth games if you subscribe to the one or more irrational beliefs that underpin them. "All Synths are dangerous." "The world needs order and a leader no matter the cost." "Nords 4 Life." "Imperial rule is best because Imperial rule is best." "Brotherhood of Steel is always right."

So yeah. Why would I saddle myself with an ultimately uninteresting set of choices when I can have total freedom and be constrained by no moral/political philosophy except that which I create? I have more fun effectively creating the Kingdom In the North and deciding what gets to live in my Kingdom....than I do passing moral/ethical/political judgment on the more developed parts of the world.

As an example:

Spoiler: Covenant (click to show/hide)

As a counter-example:

Spoiler: The Diner (click to show/hide)

It's setups like Covenant which make it hard for me to run out and do longer Beth quests, and prefer the shorter quests/events which aren't trying so hard. Sort of like how short stories are often better stories than full length ones because they're so much tighter.

Because in more important Bethesda quests, the principles are not fully fleshed-out people. The right questions are never asked of them or what they believe. The foundations on which beliefs are built are shaky at best, 100% arbitrary at worst. Thus it has always been in Beth games. The quests are acceptable if you wholesale buy into the beliefs that inhabit the world and don't question them. If you stand apart from the world and look at it with a critical eye, most of the higher order beliefs in the world just seem absurd. Kind of like how Bethesda has to throw a lot of random, generic content into their world to cover all the empty spaces, in terms of ideas and themes, they often to the same thing so that the world is covered in several very broad themes (Nord Independence.) For example, the Oblivion Gates? No one gave a shit about the Oblivion gates. But at least it was an uncomplicated and adventurous theme that provided global context. (Go through strange portals and kill demons before they destroy your world.) Since Oblivion though the big themes in the games have gotten more political. Just what the doctor ordered right? Not if they're not executed interestingly.

It's why I think Morrowind still has the superior introduction despite all the games since it. You get your Bethesda style intro and then the game just drops you in a foreign land with few to no preconceptions to motivate you. It's all discovery. No tugging at the heart strings plot. No grand plots of world-shattering importance that you inexplicably are always in at the ground floor of. I can barely recall most of the Morrowind plots at this point because they're all pretty distinct in their own way.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 10:00:03 pm by nenjin »
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Rolan7

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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5368 on: February 15, 2016, 04:57:52 pm »

It honestly baffles me how someone could play twenty hours, not even get to the second quest in the main story, and then get bored and quit.
My brother has been playing this in the most baffling way, almost opposite me.  He has 273 hours.  Practically every settlement, many loaded up with LITERALLY DOZENS of heavy water purifiers.  He complains that Preston kept telling him to get more (he likes Preston, hated the nagging)...

And he finally saw the Glowing Sea yesterday, and only because I kept keeping him on track.  It kinda blows my mind (I've mostly stuck to the main quest, screw the settlements, because I want my son back and all (in fact I basically stopped playing at [REDACTED], out of indecision)).  I don't really like the settlement system at all, even with Local Leader, but he...

Like me, he does travel with Nick!  But we have basically the opposite opinion of him.  He really, really hates Nick, and I honestly don't know why.  He keeps saying Nick's probably a sleeper agent (sure, likely, particularly after [REDACTED]) but this is bizarre...  He actually cusses Nick out for getting in the way, and shot him a bunch for "losing" a suit of power armor.  (It was weird, he had Nick hack a computer (he hates the computer game, like most people (unlike me)) and forgot to tell Nick to get back in.  And apparently the power armor despawned later).

I have no idea why he travels with him, and it's kinda frustrating since I really like Nick's entire character, and would romance him if that was an option.

He likes Piper of course, but who doesn't?  Even I like the whole reporter thing.

Edit: Oh but mainly he has totally been ignoring the main quest like crazy.  My friends and I played Oblivion for years without finishing the main quest, because it was meh.  Skyrim we took our time.  But, we at least got midway through so all the cool stuff started!  (Gates, dragons)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2016, 05:03:37 pm by Rolan7 »
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Re: Fallout 4: Gay For Your Own Brain
« Reply #5369 on: February 15, 2016, 05:00:38 pm »

The next time he says Nick's a sleeper agent, you should say, "Well....." like you're going to explain something and then not explain it.
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