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Author Topic: Fallout 4: It Just Works  (Read 840223 times)

Rolan7

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4965 on: December 20, 2015, 01:33:54 pm »

Weapon condition is a mind-numbingly stupid immersion-breaker that should be removed from everything that has ever used it at all period.

Here, this gun has survived two hundred years of weathering and use, but if you use it for more than ten minutes it will need to be totally rebuilt.

Hey enjoy this pristine laser rifle that you found in a sealed bunker, if you carefully mange your use, it might survive a single extended battle.

Yo, have this cherry PA, it serves our brothers in the field perfectly, but after 2-3 fights with SM you'll need to scrap fifteen of them to get it back in working order.

I'm not entirely happy with the design decisions made in F4, and I hate the writing, but Bethesda sure as hell made the right call in removing weapon condition.
Well, gotta balance gameplay and realism to some extent.  Immersion and fun.

... Except that realism is *on the side of weapons requiring maintenance*.  Particularly in a desert (NV) but really anywhere.  Unmaintained guns weren't "just fine" after those 200 years, they were falling apart from rust and dust.  Repairing them with similarly ruined weapons doesn't make perfect sense, but it's a convenience thing (like pausing the fight to slam a dozen sandwiches and a stimpack).

Of course now we'd probably have to go to some weapon bench, because field maintenance is unheard of and they're so proud of Skyrim's crafting animations...  They should let us carry folding tables in our bags of holding :P

You're also exaggerating the rate of weapon degradation a bit, there.  I didn't really have any issue except with the hyperbreeder, due to its high rate of fire and effectiveness in every scenario (and lack of copies to scrap).  I was even able to maintain it fine with weapon repair kits (maybe because I enjoy scavenging, so found decent amounts of wonderglue).

It made the world into a zero-sum game of gradual decay... perfect for a post apocalypse.

This does not, has never had, and should not ever have anything to do with Fallout.  Fallout is not a survival series of games.  It is a series of post apocalyptic adventures where you, the ____ hero step forth from obscurity and save the world.
Er, yes it is.  Or was.  The wasteland was inhospitable, full of mutant creatures who'd drain your resources.  Not just ammo and stimpacks but doctor's bags, first aid, antitoxin...  There was even a "survival" skill to avoid such encounters.  New Vegas sorta kinda almost brought that back with hardcore mode and more dangerous wasteland animals.

Aside, I'm not really a fan of Bethesda's overuse of not-zombies in FO3 and 4...
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NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4966 on: December 20, 2015, 01:33:55 pm »

That is entirely a matter of opinion.

When no one else has to deal with their weapon suddenly jamming or breaking in the middle of combat (unless specifically targeted by the player) then it is non-immersive.  When no one else ever has their armor break from continuous combat then it is non-immersive.  When the entire point of the mechanic is to artificially limit the amount of money the player can amass, then it is non- immersive.  Fallout and Fallout 2 handled this far better by just making the armor a non-drop item, the only reason that I can come up with that that mechanic was scrapped was for the same reason as above, it is non-immersive.

Survival mode in NV was a purely optional system.  It has nothing to do with what I am discussing here.  Further the 'survival' skill had nothing to do with what I am discussing either.  Fallout is not a resource management game, excepting in the ways that all RPGs are, i.e. 'how many healing potions do I have'.  For me at least the answer to that question is invariably 'far more than I could ever reasonably use.'
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 01:38:02 pm by NullForceOmega »
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Rolan7

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4967 on: December 20, 2015, 01:38:00 pm »

Sure but FO1 and 2 were totally survival games, and NV Hardcore was a callback to that.  You didn't have to eat in 1/2, but travel was not only dangerous but cost in resources.
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This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.

NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4968 on: December 20, 2015, 01:42:09 pm »

Yeah, other than early game (basically until you hit the hub), Fallout has you nearly swimming in stimpacks, and poison becomes a non-issue once you can blast radscorpions in the brain reliably (around level 4-5.)

Fallout 2?  You can be so well decked out by the time you get out of Gecko that you never have to worry about anything other than getting critted ever.

Edit: I will stop now, I have tried to make my point, and am starting to get too emotional.  Sorry if I actually offended anyone.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2015, 01:43:56 pm by NullForceOmega »
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Rolan7

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4969 on: December 20, 2015, 01:45:00 pm »

I started it by getting emotional over FO4's changes, no offense taken at all.  Sorry for the walls of text, was bored.
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Krevsin

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4970 on: December 20, 2015, 01:53:46 pm »

I'm seriously not having any issues with the power armor breaking.

I have a T-51 (now upgraded all the way to f) and it has served me well in many firefights. I only ever remember losing all of my parts in protracted battles with multiple Gunners, but that stopped once I upgraded to T-51d. Now it takes a frontal hit from a mutant suicider or a mini nuke hit to really mess any parts up (They usually strip me of everything tho).

Oh and did I mention I have a jetpack? Because I totally have a jetpack and by Jove is it fun.


Actually, yeah, this new perk system was fun at first but it's exactly the dumbing-down everyone was afraid of.  I already ranted about how most of them don't matter.  They barely change the gameplay at all, and when they do (Intimidation perks, Lifegiver 3) they're still incredibly disappointing or nigh-broken (No XP, no loot, murder is okay but stealing is not).  Just level up your weapon class perk (restricting choice!) and learn how to pick locks and hack (when the level cap LETS you).  Get the crafting ones if you want...  Or just buy the mods from shops.  It's not like there's anything else to spend late-game caps on!
The dumbing down I'm seeing isn't so much the fault of the perk system itself but in the fact that none of it is being utilized for anything besides of what it says on the tin. Also the dialogue can eat rotten mirelurk balls eggs.

Could solve a problem with a check based on medical/technical/scientific knowledge? Nah, we won't give you that option because you can only persuade people with charisma now.

Basically the perks feel less like a gradual expansion of your character's skill and knowledge and more like "You leveled? HERE'S A NIFTY THING."

It's not a problem with the systems themselves (except for the dialogue), but in the way they are used. A more competent studio Obsidian (let's not even pretend to conceal my raging fanboyism for that particular dev) could probably use it in a much more nuanced and interesting way.
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majikero

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4971 on: December 20, 2015, 02:59:43 pm »

Like I always say about this game. It's a very fun game. It just fails at everything about RPGs.
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Greenbane

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4972 on: December 20, 2015, 04:46:25 pm »

RPG is basically anything with character stats, equipment and loot these days.
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AoshimaMichio

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4973 on: December 20, 2015, 05:04:14 pm »

It's almost if word "role" doesn't mean what it used to mean.
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MarcAFK

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4974 on: December 20, 2015, 06:06:15 pm »

Thinking about weapon maintenance, the examples given for why it sucks really just illustrate bad design and implementation. It could be a major effect on the game and needs to be treated that way rather than just crowbarred in.
If all weapons had a varying reliability factor, which was affected by poor modifications, particularly rate of fire, and caliber that would be something integrated into the crafting system allowing better quality mods at higher skill.
All weapons are affected differently by insufficient lubrication, over heating, fouling form repeated firing, foreign contaminants usually environmental dust, water, rust etc.
All those variables are generally managed by not treating your gun like crap and frequent stripping and other maintenance. Is it over complex and not fun for a game? Good question. I don't thing guns should completely break but rather frequency of jams should go up. Each gun should have it's own unjamning animation, ease of unjamning and reliability has a major effect on what guns are suitable for taking into combat. A great strength of the AK family is the ease at which a jammed bolt can be slammed close, however a dirty reciever will jam continuously.
Most guns you find lieing around should need stripping and maintaining, raider guns should work fine but perhaps not reliably. Further I'll note that most modern guns can fire 1000 rounds before starting to foul or overheat, many are remarkably resistant to dust and even water.
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Jiokuy

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4975 on: December 20, 2015, 06:56:33 pm »

Yeah, other than early game (basically until you hit the hub), Fallout has you nearly swimming in stimpacks, and poison becomes a non-issue once you can blast radscorpions in the brain reliably (around level 4-5.)

Fallout 2?  You can be so well decked out by the time you get out of Gecko that you never have to worry about anything other than getting critted ever.

Edit: I will stop now, I have tried to make my point, and am starting to get too emotional.  Sorry if I actually offended anyone.

You're a cool person, nothing personal ok.

I find these statements to be full of fallacies though. The execution of game (swimming in stimpacks), does not inform the intent of the designer (survival versus action versus adventure). I feel your stance on this is because weapon repair perhaps felt tedious to you. But none of reasons you listed in any of your posts are backed by logic. Your rant about non-immersive is just wrong. Immersion is the feeling of actually being in the game. Immersion is broken when the rules of the game and how they reflect reality are made apparent to the player. This requires an event, not the lack of one.

You argue enemy guns not jamming (when your own do), is a sign of non-immersion therefore all gun jamming should be removed. First enemies gun's not jamming it isn't obvious, it isn't something the typical player notices ever, because the player has limited knowledge of what enemies do. In general to break immersion requires a force to pop the immersions bubble, and enemy behavior isn't strong enough. (unless they really fuck up, companions pushing me into mines or standing in front of me as I try to sprint across the room in FO4, those were immersion breaking. Only an AI in a video game would do that). Second: You argue Gun jamming should be removed, but I feel that is tragically missing the point. The immersive action would be to add AI lines and actions where their gun jams or breaks, and they shout out to their allies about it.

Going back to execution versus intent because I got sidetracked there. I could make a game similar to amnesia the dark descent only replace the monsters and Imagry with chibi unicorns and rainbows. It would not be a very scarry game. But the core game-play values would remain the same. The intent was survival horror, the execution was fluffly, the result was a joke of a game (or a very good game if you're scared of poorly rendered chibi unicorns).

From my experience the intent of the early fallout games, was adventure rpg in a post-apocalyptic setting. You're completely right, it's not survival in the survival-horror sense of the word (counting bullets and hp packs). But the setting of a game, it's world. Settings speak, they emote to the player. As much as any NPC, a setting will tell the player a lot of information subtly. Making Ammo and Health scarce is a setting choice, not a core mechanic. What it says is, this world is low on resources living on scraps torn from the carcass of the pre-war world. They are by no means necessairy, but it tells the player about the world.

I loved making my own bullets in NV, it feels like something a survior in a post apoc world would do.

TL:DR you're right, mostly, I think survival elements improve the game, I think the game does need money sinks, but they don't have to be weapon maintenance (although it is not a terrible choice if it is handled a little better) Bethesda has not shown the best work in recent years though.
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AlleeCat

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4976 on: December 20, 2015, 07:13:10 pm »

Hilarious bug time again.

I'm traveling with Preston, and sometimes people give him ammo and shit when he talks to them.
Except EVERY TIME THIS HAPPENS, he strips naked.

It's better than the time that I had Nick bug - he got stuck lying down and so he couldn't walk. The silly part was that he would still turn towards me and teleport when I wasn't looking.

I had that happen during his quest, so he was having a conversation with the dude through a wall.
I had a bug where Nick got into a suit of power armor on his own, which then disappeared. He ended up walking around with elongated arms and legs and I was down a power armor frame.

NullForceOmega

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4977 on: December 20, 2015, 08:16:45 pm »

snipped

While that is a well thought out post and you make a reasonable point, I'm not going to respond to it.

I am not calm or collected.  If I drop a subject it is no one's interest to call me out on it, as I have decided to cool off and do not want to be drug back into a subject that is causing me to lose my very limited grip on civility.

I am not berating you, however, for your decision to comment.  Just pointing out that I have issues and I would appreciate if in the future you would avoid hitting this particular button.
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Grey morality is for people who wish to avoid retribution for misdeeds.

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Flying Dice

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4978 on: December 20, 2015, 09:01:55 pm »

It's almost if word "role" doesn't mean what it used to mean.
Yeah, it's almost as if devs that make RPGs are making games in which the player controls a character whose skills and behaviors are abstracted as one or more of a number of roles. It's almost as if people are wearing cokebottle eyewear crafted from rose-tinted glass as an excuse to complain about things they don't like.

Seriously, this whole thing about "X isn't a real RPG" is literally just a No true Scotsmanning of design choices people don't like.
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Rolan7

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Re: Fallout 4: Casuels Killed The Video Game
« Reply #4979 on: December 20, 2015, 09:03:45 pm »

I had a bug where Nick got into a suit of power armor on his own, which then disappeared. He ended up walking around with elongated arms and legs and I was down a power armor frame.
Sounds totally worth it!

I accidentally placed a water pump such that I glitch through a wall if I use it.  Good times.

And, not really a bug, but almost every time I report back to Preston he's inside a building.  Sometimes he's asleep. 
i like to whisper through the window
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580227024
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580240421 (dynamic camera understands this situation perfectly)

This glitch daytripper withdrawal still keeps happening every hour or so but I just restart:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580229152
(it gets progressively worse until every model is spazzing over the entire screen seizure-style)

Here's a picture of my character before I met the BoS.  A woman out of time, just trying to make her way in this strange new world of rebar and Ikea buildings.
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=555875414
And after meeting the BoS, enjoying a life of pure leisure and un-rusty clothes:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580230511

Later I am absolutely trustworthy, do I look like someone who could lie (ignore the gibs)
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580227919

Helping a boy scout with his mile swim:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580231810

Then I met the true hero of the wasteland:
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580232748

Then I received 100% legit indisputable proof that Fallout Tactics is canon /s
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=580231143

So I might go back to playing that for a while, particularly due to holiday traveling.
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She/they
No justice: no peace.
Quote from: Fallen London, one Unthinkable Hope
This one didn't want to be who they was. On the Surface – it was a dull, unconsidered sadness. But everything changed. Which implied everything could change.
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