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[Kagus]

I've got fairly solid Cha- it's my highest- but I thought I already could use it as my attack stat without being a hexblade? I'll check again, but alas

Nope, that's actually Hexblade-specific. Seems like it should be something native to the pact itself, doesn't it? But eh. Might be able to swing your DM around to letting you do that anyways.

Oh, right, funny thing... If you take pact of the tome, you can use Shillelagh as a Warlock spell. So if you really want to go a-whacking and the DM won't let you charm your way around a pact weapon, you can always pick up a club or quarterstaff and go to town. Won't qualify for any of the Blade Pact stuff (such as smiting/double attack/lifedrinker), but you'll at least be able to hit things.

[scriver]

oi lads pitch me some suggestions for what pact i should pick as a 5e warlock, i'm leaning towards the Blade pact

In light of the recent grammar banter in whatever other thread, I want to make a capslock joke, but I just can't get it right

[Biowraith]

On Hex: it could actually be helpful for all that grappling that was discussed earlier - pick Str for disadvantage to all those Athletics checks (or if it's a Dex heavy opponent, hit that instead for Acrobatics).

[Kagus]

Yeah, that's one of the topics covered in the Grappler's Manual. How much benefit it provides depends somewhat on how "intelligently" DMs like to play their creatures, but in general you're at least going to get some benefit out of it even if they do just immediately swap over to the other skill... At worst it's roughly a -2 point drop, at best the enemy has to decide between taking disadvantage or using a skill that's 7 points lower, or more.

It also beefs up the damage you do with unarmed attacks when kicking/headbutting a grappled opponent when you don't have any hands full.


EDIT: Huh... So if you go Tempest Cleric 2 and then switch over to Druid, picking up Circle of the Land (Mountain)... Once you hit Druid 5, you get access to Lightning Bolt, allowing you to expend Tempest Cleric's Channel Divinity ability to deal max damage (for 8d6, that'll be 48 damage to everything in the line on a failed save, 24 on a success). You can then do it again after a short rest to recover your CD.

That's at CLevel 7, a whole 7 levels before an Evoker Wizard would be able to do the same. And there's no cap at using only a 5th-level spell maximum, so you could theoretically cast Lightning Bolt at 9th level for 14d6, 84 damage on failed save, 42 damage on success.

Certainly harder to hit multiple dudes than with fireball, especially with the Evoker's ability to sculpt spells, but it pops up a lot earlier and you'll be a fair bit less squishy than a straight wiz. ...don't get to add the +5 INT modifier to damage though, heh.

[Yoink]

Do we have a dedicated thread for tabletop wargaming (other than 40k) or are such discussions supposed to go in here?
I'm pretty sure there was a separate wargaming thread at some point, but then some threads got merged or abandoned and I can't remember what search terms I'd want to use to find it in any case.

[NullForceOmega]

The "Tabletop Games" thread is still around, tho' mostly disused.  From a technical standpoint wargaming is not within the scope of the PNP thread however.

Edit: a few minutes of searching didn't turn up a specific wargaming thread, must have an unusual title if there is one.

[Kagus]

Poked around wizard variants a bit more, discovered the weirdness of how Potent Cantrips and Empowered Evocations don't... Well... They don't actually work together. There are precisely two wizard cantrips that are both save-or-hit and evocation, and both were added by Xanathar's Guide to Everything. In the base game, Evokers can either get half cantrip damage on a successful save or add their INT modifier to it, but not both. And then there's the hilarity of how picking up Potent Cantrips can actually make a couple cantrips (such as Acid Splash) less effective in certain circumstances, due to them suddenly qualifying for blocking as per the Evasion or Shield Master abilities.

So, a little disheartened, I peeked at Illusionist. This led to a terrifying dive into the many, many arguments and inconsistencies regarding Minor Illusion, and illusion spells in general... It also led to me finding a comment from someone pointing out that Warlocks can get Minor Illusion along with an invocation that lets them cast Silent Image at will, making them kind of the better trickster character throughout most of the lower levels... They can't compete with greatness such as Illusory Reality, but unless you're specifically trying to avoid counterspells or something, there's not a huge difference between a cast Silent Image that later gets altered into a new form by Malleable Illusions and just a recast-at-will Silent Image via invocation... Malleable lets it happen with no outward signs of the caster doing anything, invocation lets you put a new image somewhere else rather than dragging the old one along.

When you get to higher levels and can have things like permanent-without-concentration images, the Creation spell and other goodies for the wiz, the Illusionist pulls ahead... As well they ruddy well should.

But yeah, oh man, so much disagreement over Minor Illusion... Definitely not the best-written spell.

Enchanters get a lot of not-exactly-great stuff until level 10, which is pretty great, but then the level 14 ability kinda goes back to "niche-at-best" usefulness.


So, yeah... Guess that leaves diviners, and the infinitely valuable ability to interject whenever someone else is doing something at the table by importantly yelling "I HAVE FORESEEN THIS MOMENT!"

Edit: a few minutes of searching didn't turn up a specific wargaming thread, must have an unusual title if there is one.

_*cough*Tacticus?

[IcyTea31]

Transmuters have their own niche. The signature ability of changing materials seems weak with its limited duration and short list of possible targets, but it has some interesting tricks: turn part of a ship's hull to iron before a battle. Turn a silver ingot into wood and carve it into shape. Use rocks as firewood. Break through a stone door by turning it into wood. Weaken or strengthen a bridge's supports. Wood is definitely the material to use with Minor Alchemy.

The Transmuter's Stone has its own interesting effects, but it's hard to use cleverly with its strict list of uses.

[Rolan7]

Heh, that's probably the strength of roleplaying, even if the DM is relatively strict (our are pretty permissive).  I was a dwarf in heavy armor on a boat with a sword, Shatterspike, which always crits when it hits objects. 

And so when I was chased off the ship by a fearsome random encounter, and faced with drowning, I asked to stab my sword into the side of the boat as a handhold.

Eventually was thrown a rope - mid combat, and climbed it, to assist the party.

[Kagus]

Transmuters have their own niche. The signature ability of changing materials seems weak with its limited duration and short list of possible targets, but it has some interesting tricks: turn part of a ship's hull to iron before a battle. Turn a silver ingot into wood and carve it into shape. Use rocks as firewood. Break through a stone door by turning it into wood. Weaken or strengthen a bridge's supports. Wood is definitely the material to use with Minor Alchemy.

The Transmuter's Stone has its own interesting effects, but it's hard to use cleverly with its strict list of uses.

Ah yeah, Transmuters... Had forgotten about them. They popped up in the Grappler's Manual as something to keep an eye on, but primarily at high levels.

Basically, you could transform yourself or someone else into some incredibly beefy form, have them facetank everything for hundreds of hitpoints worth of damage, and then ZIP!, your stone could heal aaaaall those hitpoints back again. Or, provided you didn't have it meld into your new form, you could even do it to yourself.

Effectively gaining access to a nice little pocket-Power Word: Heal, a 9th level Bard spell, as a 14th level Wizard. Which is kinda neat. Having an effectively on-demand elemental resistance is also very handy, especially seeing as you can hand it off to someone else.

[IcyTea31]

Or, provided you didn't have it meld into your new form, you could even do it to yourself.

Nope, Polymorph requires concentration and thus might break when you get hit. Casting it on an ally is the better use.

[Kagus]

Or, provided you didn't have it meld into your new form, you could even do it to yourself.

Nope, Polymorph requires concentration and thus might break when you get hit. Casting it on an ally is the better use.

True, but with 20+ CON from your new form and potentially Warcaster, you stand a reasonable chance of passing most of the checks.

Although, that really only works for Shapechange, since I don't believe you get to keep feat abilities when just polymorphed... But yeah. In the event you can't find a fitting guinea pig to cast it on, and also manage to make enough concentration checks to lose a substantial portion of your health, it could be used for that... There are a few things in the Grappler's Manual that are a bit, well, hypothetical.


Was looking into blasty sorcerer fun, came across some arguments as to how draconic Elemental Affinity works with certain spells, as well as the much-more-confusing Twinned Spell metamagic. Sorc is starting to look more like an ultrabuffer to me, but there are still some shenanigans that can be pulled out with Empowered and/or Quickened Fireballs and some lucky rolls. Divine Soul is still ridiculous, but that's Xanathar's for ya...

[Criptfeind]

Divine soul used to be really really ridiculous in the UA version, it got super toned down for Xanathar's, but it's certainly still pretty okay. I don't think it's completely crazy anymore, although the ability to have a cleric spell on your sorcerers spell list is pretty cool.

[Kagus]

Multiple cleric spells at that. Cleric spells, which weren't designed or sorted with metamagic in mind... Distant Inflict Wounds, Twinned Guiding Bolt, using sorcery points to shuffle around/empower/twin healing spells, Heightened Bestow Curse, Distant Bane followed by Quickened Fireball? All sorts of nutty combos.

But yeah, UA version was definitely nuts. Divine Soul is now within somewhat more reasonable limits of nuts. Once-per-short-rest +2d4 to a failed saving throw is still pretty sweet for a first level ability, on top of Cleric+Sorc spell list shenanigans.


EDIT: Right, so, for the beginner's group, I'm kinda leaning towards druid. Specifically; Circle of the Moon, Variant Human picking up Charger at 1st level, high WIS and Shillelagh for when I'm not shaped.

All I know about the group is that the DM is inexperienced and the players are also either inexperienced or complete first-timers. I want something that can carry its own weight and preferably be able to fulfill some amount of a support/healing role just in case everyone does indeed end up acting like they have a deathwish (something which is only very slightly less common in more experienced groups).

At the same time, I don't want to have a character that's a bit too optimized and that bowls over encounters before anyone else gets a chance. That's not fun for anybody. Nor is a helicopter healer who heals everyone before they can taste a little risk.

Druid has some decent support/utility spells, and even gets Healing Word along with Cure Wounds. Charger is far from an optimized feat by any means, but it does gel a bit with some of the Wild Shape forms and Circle of the Moon shaping is already pretty hilarious at low levels as it is. It's a lot of single-target alpha strike ability, but it's not "I cast Fireball, thereby deleting the encounter". I'll even have good WIS for perception checks so we don't fall into quite as many pits. I'm also not quite squishy enough to warrant them having to look after me. Provided I don't get too cocky and sure of myself, that is... Definitely no guarantees there.

It's also single class and doesn't rely on too many confusing rules or wordings (the Crossbow Master bonus attack, Twinned Spells, or anything related to mounted combat on large creatures...), making things easier for the DM, and everyone else for that matter. Heck, I don't even know yet whether or not multiclassing will be allowed, or feats/Vuman for that matter. But it's a concept, at least... It can do a few things fairly well, and it's goofy enough to get me interested while also being punchy enough to appeal to my desire for combat optimization.


An alternative would be a Thief Rogue with Healer, taking advantage of the Thief's expanding upon Cunning Action. I just have a hard time balancing all the stats and skills as Rogue...

[Egan_BW]

(something which is only very slightly less common in more experienced groups).

I believe that you mean only slightly more common.