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[wierd]

Man... I really want to play a muscle wizard now!

But, would any self-respecting DM actually Allow that kind of pure premium bullshit? LOL

[Trekkin]

Man... I really want to play a muscle wizard now!

But, would any self-respecting DM actually Allow that kind of pure premium bullshit? LOL

Hey, I've run mini campaigns that were entirely about goofy theoretical optimization silliness in between larger, more story-driven games. Some days everybody just wants to be a telekinetic reuben, you know?

[Kagus]

I believe the difficulty is more in finding a way of making it actually workable. Strength casters aren't generally much of a thing, except for Pillars of Eternity.

I mean, there's always Bigby's, which is legitimately "I cast fist"... But that only barely benefits from being buff, which is sad.


Y'know, I kinda wonder why there isn't a barbarian analog for casters... Someone who goes into an arcane rage and lets the big blasty magic fly while hopped up on an overdose of angry... But eh.

[Egan_BW]

Bloodrager.

[wierd]

The main problem I see is that the core mechanics of spell casters, and HP Tanks, are almost totally exclusive to each other.

I could see a really demented form of magic user that relies on CON, but I am unaware of any splatbooks that would detail such a class. (It could very well already exist, I dunno)

think-- Weaponized typhoid mary. (We can call it something like "Plague Bearer" or something.)

Character PURPOSEFULLY seeks horrifically contagious diseases and or magical maladies. Uses a dice roll mechanic to "contract" the disease/malady, but not suffer any ill effects (has risk of failure, where they will either not be infected, or will be infected but suffer effects). Instead, gets to gain intrinsic mastery over the contagion. (Compare, "blue mage" from final fantasy series-- Must experience a monster attack, then afterwards can use that attack themselves.)  Uses CON to set number of active maladies/diseases they can handle without harm (equivalent of spell slot), and uses CON for resist and active infection/contagion rolls.

Otherwise, works like a rogue or other close-range attack class.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, no magic class adds Con to anything other than bonus spells per day, at least from 3.x edition. There's the Tome of Battle Swordsage which uses martial maneuvers that work kinda like spells, and Insightful Strike adds your Concentration check (which is Con based) instead of your normal modifiers to the melee attack. There's also a bunch of ways to get Con to AC and Reflex/Will saves too.

[Kagus]

Not that a rage-like ability has to specifically target CON and STR, mind. Just as rogues aren't measured by their sword-and-board abilities and clerics aren't expected to use wizard spells. If you're going to make a new class of character, it's generally acceptable to make new gameplay mechanics that those characters can take part in.

And now I'm trying to figure out muscle wizard archetypes, so thanks.

[wierd]

Makes me wonder if we should make a different thread for home-grown splatbooks.  I could totally make a valid (world-lore friendly, et al) case for the plague bearer class, but they would be hard-line chaotic evil, without some significant downside being tacked on.

Eg-- this class could be intimately tied to Erythnul (or similarly associated entity), where the ability to obtain, and then weaponize diseases is a kind of "dark gift" given in exchange for service. This would put it in the same sphere as divine magic, but with an evil alignment, malign intent, etc.  (hence the need for hardline chaotic evil, OR-- have some explanation for how they manage to survive having the diseases without divine intervention)  The primary reason for the class' existence, is literally to walk undetected through densely populated areas, and spread horrible plagues.  More the sort of thing a mid-to-high-level mook of the BigBad would have as a class, but could totally have some great gameplay as a character class too, if given the right setting.


Another possible use of CON for spell casting would be a kind of "wild channeling" type caster class, where they tap raw magical energy and direct it through their bodies, lightning rod style. (thus, they need the CON score to avoid being "severely harmed" (ahem) by the process) Not sure how to define a mechanic for that though.

[Jimmy]

Don't think it'd need a separate thread unless you're really serious about genning a custom class, but as a simple brainstorming exercise, I'd suggest perhaps a method of disease transferal through magic?

For example, the class/prestige gets access to a Spell-Like Ability to cast Inflict Light Wounds or higher level variants, usable a number of times per day equal to the number of active diseases the character is currently carrying. As part of the saving throw to resist the spell, if the target fails their save, they immediately contract one of the player's diseases.

[Kagus]

Well, aside from making a whole new spell set, you could just give them the option to "overcharge" a spell to enhance its effect (probably just keep it to simple stuff like damage/healing spells only), requiring a Con saving throw. Failing the throw means taking damage, and potentially other fun stuff a la the wild surge table. Kinda similar to a few other already-existing kit bonuses, but it could be tweaked.


Hmm... Should a muscle wizard focus on hitting things with their own hands, or are fist-like magical spells permitted? I mean, in the old days you could do just fine with limited spell slots by just getting enough to buff yourself with Bull's Strength and its ilk... But now those spells basically just provide advantage for ability checks, which doesn't include punching. Or many spells, for that matter.

[Grim Portent]

Are you familiar with the 3.5 D&D class Cancer Mage? It's immune to the negative effects of diseases, has a bit of sneak attack, a sentient tumour familiar, poison touch and a bunch of other stuff. It's pinnacle was turning into a disease that could infect one person and basically served as a body hopping kind of power.

[Jimmy]

Yeah, the Cancer Mage is the one that abuses those mechanics to gain absurd amounts of Strength via Festering Anger adding +2 per day.

[wierd]

Don't think it'd need a separate thread unless you're really serious about genning a custom class, but as a simple brainstorming exercise, I'd suggest perhaps a method of disease transferal through magic?

For example, the class/prestige gets access to a Spell-Like Ability to cast Inflict Light Wounds or higher level variants, usable a number of times per day equal to the number of active diseases the character is currently carrying. As part of the saving throw to resist the spell, if the target fails their save, they immediately contract one of the player's diseases.

The case here would indeed be a custom class, which is why I wondered about if we should make a thread for our own home-grown splats.  The idea I had for the plague bearer is that it treats the disease list like a spell list, with the more egregious and horribad ones being equivalent to high level spells, (thinking more sorc template on this) where there are class abilities used to "cast".  things like "foetid bile", where they can perform an "Exorcist Puke" as a higher level means of transmission, but also have more subtle, touch-based contagion mechanic "Dirty hands", etc. 

At lower levels, they only have the touch based mechanics, and gain access to better and better means of delivering diseases on target or area-effect as they gain levels in the class.

This way they are limited by what diseases they can use, and how they can use them, based on their CON score and their character level.  Bonus-- since they have to be infected to be able to use/spread infection, they would have great difficulty with healing services, which would politely try to "Cure" them. LOL

Resisting being cured would be an interesting mechanic in and of itself I think.

(Imagines epic battle between Divine caster/monk, and plague bearer, where one is trying to cure/defeat, and the other is trying to infect/defeat, touching all over each other, shooting rays of energy, and with geysers of horrible bodily fluids getting spread everywhere.)

[MrRoboto75]

Back in 4th ed our group had a sorcerer that keyed his spells off of strength.

We called him the "flex mage", whose somatic components were just him striking poses and flexing his muscles really hard.

Like someone does this and a lighting bolt shoots out of his hand

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Rolan7]

Isn't muscle wizard just monk?  I CAST KI STRIKE

3.5 does have the Rage Mage prestige class in Complete Warrior, for multiclass barbarian/spellcasters.  It's basically what it sounds like, you get to cast spells while in a rage.  Of course, that's oversimplifying.

Cons (no pun intended):  Half spell progression, requires 4BAB and rage (or frenzy, gwaHAHAHA).  Obviously doesn't match the strengths of a pure barbarian or pure spellcaster.

Pros:
Uses character level for most spells in a rage, mitigating the half spell progression.
Eventually gets a +2/+4 bonus to save DC on top of that
-10% to arcane spell failure chance at 2nd level.  This gives a mithral chain shirt no ASF.
The capstone is pretty funny

The loss of high level spells basically trumps everything, but I still think it sounds fun for a hybrid character.  The save DCs are a bit higher than a pure spellcaster, which is nice, and it'll be easier to land spells due to 2/3 BAB.
Spells per day will suffer, but I think wands/scrolls would work fine in the spell rage.  Simply attacking with a weapon is also an option.

GiantITP hates it of course, offering much better "gishes" which involve 5 different classes and obscure books   They assume it'd be barbarian/sorcerer, or "mystic ranger" for some cheese I don't get.  It's a shame that using cleric would waste almost all the benefits, heh.

Tempted to plan up an alienist combo just for the "raving lunatic" lulz.

Yeah, no magic class adds Con to anything other than bonus spells per day, at least from 3.x edition. There's the Tome of Battle Swordsage which uses martial maneuvers that work kinda like spells, and Insightful Strike adds your Concentration check (which is Con based) instead of your normal modifiers to the melee attack. There's also a bunch of ways to get Con to AC and Reflex/Will saves too.

The CON replacements on the great X To Y thread are pretty limited or defense-oriented for all classes.  Probably because it's such a vital stat for any character's survivability.  Even "single attribute dependent" classes like most spellcasters need CON, arguably more than DEX.  Making it a spellcasting stat would be... hard to balance.