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Author Topic: Fortress layout  (Read 3919 times)

Tablen Arue

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Fortress layout
« on: May 13, 2015, 11:59:09 am »

I use a layer system for my fortresses, all the workshops on one floor, all the bedrooms on one floor, all the stockpiles on one floor, etc...
I enjoy this system (its fairly easy to organize and find things) but there are some problems i come across quite often

1. Since stockpiles are on their own floor all workshop dwarves must bring their product down/up to it (although i usually have them right next to each-other)
2. When I'm invaded and I lose a floor it can seriously hurt me since that cut off an entire section of my fortress not to mention since i put my workshops on the higher levels, due in part because they're usually one of my first floors to be made, it cuts off my resource production (except for smiths who are on my lower levels)

Is there any other better layouts you recommend (yes you, those who come across this page)?
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arbarbonif

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 12:20:44 pm »

I've taken to doing pods.  So I'll have an area that is stone stockpiles and masons and mechanics.  Then up near the surface will be food related stuff.  Someplace else will be forges, ore and bars.  Woodworking is usually near the food.  Bedrooms are kind in the middle (or each pod each has its own).  I've also gotten addicted to quantum stockpiles, which means that every workshop has its own stockpile of all the stuff it would ever need.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2015, 12:28:08 pm »

I follow the principle of not letting invaders in:
- Completely enclosed (decked over) courtyard for grazers, over ground crops, refuse QS, and initial trade depot with drawbridge to block access. Shortly thereafter a second drawbridge in added outside of that at the end of a build access path (decked over). Cage traps to capture invaders and thieving wildlife.
- The very first thing after having build the workshops is to build two drawbridges in the entrance tunnel (inside the courtyard), with cage traps in between).
- Turtle until the invaders go away if you cannot beat them.
- Serpentine trade depot entrance tunnel (with cage traps and drawbridges) for the permanent trade depot.
- The two entrances allow me to get invaders to rush between the entrances, while I capture a few at a time in the cage traps. The cages can be removed and traps reloaded in the safety of closed access drawbridges.

- Airlock (dual drawbridges) with cage traps in between before breaching caverns "for real" (exploratory digging is obviously required to detect them in the first place, but those breaches are bricked up ASAP).

- Also note that dorfs, unlike humans, expend the same amount of effort moving vertically as moving horizontally, so having the stockpile right above or under the mess hall with convenient stairs is actually as close as you can get.

If you have to, sacrifice dorfs to invaders to buy you time to close the innermost drawbridge and turtle. Never let them in. You can go the other route to lead the entrance tunnel into the militia training facilities and the cannon fodder training there, but then you should have a last drawbridge inside of that.
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schlake

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2015, 12:30:35 pm »

I put my workshops near the raw materials.  Some workshops end up staying put (such as butchers near the animals, cloth near the pig tails), but the workshops that use stone get torn down and rebuilt as new areas are excavated just so they are always handily located next to the rocks.
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PatrikLundell

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2015, 12:47:50 pm »

Why tear the old workshops down? It's easier to just build new ones (only reason I can see is if you're using the manager, who'd screw up things by scheduling it to the old workshops, but that can be handled by filling those with suspended orders).
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Tablen Arue

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2015, 12:56:28 pm »

I've taken to doing pods.  So I'll have an area that is stone stockpiles and masons and mechanics.  Then up near the surface will be food related stuff.  Someplace else will be forges, ore and bars.  Woodworking is usually near the food.  Bedrooms are kind in the middle (or each pod each has its own).  I've also gotten addicted to quantum stockpiles, which means that every workshop has its own stockpile of all the stuff it would ever need.

Good idea!
Also i forgot to mention this, i do tend to have small stockpiles related to the group on their level, I've usually got a secondary food stock pile in my farms level.
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Corona688

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2015, 01:30:39 pm »

In the end, no matter what layout you choose, dwarves may still travel 150 z-levels for rock #937 while ignoring the perfectly good rock #938 two steps away.  The first step in efficiency then, is making workshops take from a stockpile instead of grabbing whatever rock they please.  For a master crafter, that's an improvement from 4 rock pots per season to 4 rock pots per second.  Within 5 tiles is good.

I use an airlock for my trade depot.  Pull one switch to open doors and close bridges at the same time, giving traders access to you and cutting off the depot from the outside world.

I've tried for a long time to engineer better layouts for a fortress.  One great fortress doesn't work so well unless all the resources you want are in the same place.  Right now I'm trying a split layout, with farms and quarries near the surface, smelters and masons near the magma sea, and a track line carrying down ore and ferrying up goods.

I can't tell you much about military because I always sucked at that.
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Tablen Arue

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2015, 01:34:21 pm »

I can't tell you much about military because I always sucked at that.

I like to use the trap and steal method where you put up a ton of traps, kill your first wave of goblins/kobolds with them and steal their stuff to give to your militia who train on the peaceful wild life until you get bigger baddies.
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Niddhoger

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2015, 01:39:04 pm »

Indeed, bridges should be seen as "unbreakable doors/temporary walls" first and a way to cross chasms second.  I often have 10+ bridges and only 1-2 actually serve as bridges :P

Seriosly though, why do so many graze on the surface? There is this stuff called cave moss that vigorously grows on (easy to dig out) underground dirt.  You dont even have to leave caverns open.  Breach them quickly so you know where it is (for fortress planning) then wall off that opening.  Dig out your underground pasture and the moss begins growing immediately! No need to deck over giant areas, build walls, or ever worry about trolls eating your mutton!

As far as fortress planning... yeah, that layout is horrendously inefficient.  Workshops tend to create groupings or chains.  Farm->(textile plants stockpile->)farmers workshop->loom->(mill->)dyer's shop->clothiers shop is one of the more straightforward ones I put in an actual line.  The dyes/queern/mill I put to the side of the dyer's shop (that is sandwiched between the loom and clothiers).  Workshops can actually serve as stockpiles if there is no valid ouput for their goods and dorfs will seamlessly take from them.  So my weaver raids the farmers WS for thread while the dyer raids the loom for cloth (and then takes 2-3 more steps to the mill for dye).  If one step gets too far ahead, that shop will get cluttered and slow down- this actually helps to balance the chain.  Additionally shops can be added to the sides as well.  With current barrel-related hijinks, this is definitely the most efficient set-up.

Animal processing tends to be another floor.  I have a bone pile on one side of the butchers with a (bone) craft shop and bowyer on the other.  The meat stockpile is usually directly above to sit next to the kitchen and plant stockpiles (which are fed by the farms on the level above THAT, so two over the underground pastures/animal training zone).  The dining room will also be on the same level as the kitchen (over animals and under plants).  I tend to put my tannery touching the butcher's shop to help make sure the raw hides don't rot, then a short distance from there I have a leahter stockpile (most of my leather is bought, honestly) near a LW shop.  If I have shearable/milkable critters, I add farmer WS in the pastures with small SP's sent to give to the main ones further inside. 

This is another handy tool- relay stockpiles.  You can have a main stockpile somewhere convenient, and then set it to give to a very small (under 10 spaces) specific stocpile (say, featherwood only) near a WS.  This is how you force the crafting of specific resources.  They can also be used like I do with the pastures to connect resource acquisition from different sources.  I often have several just for plants.  One big stockpile for getting plants out of the fields that links to several smaller ones directly adjacent their WS.  Brew plants to the still, Quarry bushes to the farmer WS (NOT) the one in the pasture!), mill plant next to the quern, etc.  You'll want multiple craft and farmers WS- they have far too many uses to rely on just one of each- add extras near each chain as appropriate.

Another place I make use of relay stockpiles is for wood.  Wood stocpile is my first floor to prevent wood haulers from dragging too much. I tend to have a huge (10x10 at least) wood stockpile just to get the lumber safely inside.  However, it wastes too much of my carpenters time dragging logs from the back of this pile, so I set up another SP sandwiched directly between the giant log pile and the carpenters.   This keeps my legendary bed maker from having to move much while forcing the scud-monkey cheesemakers to ever haul the logs closer.  There are wood furnaces off to the side with a small charcoal pile.  This pile is linked to a larger charcoal pile down by the mines and forges- its easier to move the charcoal stacked in bins than it is to haul wood down or bars/ore up.   I then place a chain of wood burner->lye maker->soap maker for when I have to do that crap.  A wood-craftWS will also be adjacent to the carpenter to churn out pots or other crafts.  I never make xbows from wood- it has far too many other uses compared to bone. 

There is another layer for my various furnaces, and another  for stone+jewels+mechanic (similar set up to the wood pile) With all these and 2 layers for bedrooms (at least, it's too much horizontal space to put 200 rooms on one level) and usually an entire floor for dining room+kitchen+hospital, I tend to have a fort of about 8-9 layers not counting the surface (usually just a token structure til lI get around to building the courtyard).  Quite simply put, you aren't playing DF right if you don't make proper use of vertical space.  Dorfs move diagonally at 1.4 times as fast as they do cardinally, but they will still push a minecart filled with lead up a ramp as fast as they'd walk down one carrying nothing but a tune- you need to utilize this! Even if you don't make 5 layers of various connected workshops, you can place the workshop stockpiles directly underneath their paired shops.  Think of them like storage basements... so next to your mason is a staircase leading down into your stone stockpile.  I tend to find putting all the stockpile's on one level to "see everything better" to be missleading.  Sure, you see your dorfs scurry around... but this still doesn't tell you much.  For the "big picture" it helps to get used to the manager and stocks screens.  Relying more on these will make it easier for you to give up "seeing them all at once" and break up your workshop level into more efficient chains.
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Corona688

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2015, 01:40:54 pm »

Well I've only just convinced my soldiers to wear pants so we'll see.
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Corona688

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2015, 01:42:47 pm »

One more thing to stress -- I don't think it's ever going to be perfect the first time.  Until you know the lay of the land, the placement of caverns, the veins of ore, you're always going to be building in the wrong place.  So don't bother making it too "nice" until you do.

Anything you don't like, you can always tear down and turn into a quarry later.  Don't be afraid to move.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2015, 01:45:44 pm by Corona688 »
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schlake

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2015, 02:08:47 pm »

Why tear the old workshops down? It's easier to just build new ones (only reason I can see is if you're using the manager, who'd screw up things by scheduling it to the old workshops, but that can be handled by filling those with suspended orders).

Because they are ugly!
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Tablen Arue

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2015, 02:11:07 pm »

Why tear the old workshops down? It's easier to just build new ones (only reason I can see is if you're using the manager, who'd screw up things by scheduling it to the old workshops, but that can be handled by filling those with suspended orders).

Because they are ugly!

i think they're beautiful, it's a reminder of everything that has gone on in your fortress!
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Niddhoger

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2015, 02:12:59 pm »

One more thing to stress -- I don't think it's ever going to be perfect the first time.  Until you know the lay of the land, the placement of caverns, the veins of ore, you're always going to be building in the wrong place.  So don't bother making it too "nice" until you do.

Anything you don't like, you can always tear down and turn into a quarry later.  Don't be afraid to move.

I mentioned this indirectly... but finding the caverns asap is an important early step for me.  Sometimes the top of the caverns can be as low as -7/8, so I like to dig down and breach them very early to help plan the layout of my base.  I'll also learn what ores are available (several exposed veins in cavern), any sources of easy-to-tap water (reservoir/well set up), and release those yummy, yummy spores.  While One miner digs out a few early workshop rooms, the other starts digging a staircase straight down in hopes of finding the caverns.  I don't actually leave it open... I just find hte cavern/release spores then seal it back up.
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Corona688

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Re: Fortress layout
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2015, 02:18:18 pm »

I mentioned this indirectly... but finding the caverns asap is an important early step for me.  Sometimes the top of the caverns can be as low as -7/8, so I like to dig down and breach them very early to help plan the layout of my base.  I'll also learn what ores are available (several exposed veins in cavern), any sources of easy-to-tap water (reservoir/well set up), and release those yummy, yummy spores.
Oh yes, the magic spores which let you make inside pastures.

I hate forgotten beasts though.  I can barely handle giant toads.
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