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[Albedo]

Massed  marks-dwarvces are pretty nice, with a separate squad of axe/hammer {m}oved to the same area to handle any well-ventilated targets who charge them. 

I use a layer system for my fortresses, all the workshops on one floor, all the bedrooms on one floor, all the stockpiles on one floor, etc...
I enjoy this system (its fairly easy to organize and find things) but there are some problems i come across quite often

1. Since stockpiles are on their own floor all workshop dwarves must bring their product down/up to it (although i usually have them right next to each-other)

Is there any other better layouts you recommend (yes you, those who come across this page)?

- Also note that dorfs, unlike humans, expend the same amount of effort moving vertically as moving horizontally, so having the stockpile right above or under the mess hall with convenient stairs is actually as close as you can get.

This.

It's very common for a new player to build workshops with a "handy" expanse of stores around them on the same level. But that's only b/c, graphically, we're used to seeing "organization" on 2 levels, not 3.

Let's say you wanted 2 related workshop with "only" ~125 tiles of storage (12x12 or so, with workshops - smallish by dwarf standards).  On a single level, that 12x12 area might look something like this...

Code: [Select]

ssssssssssss
ssssssssssss
ssssssssssss
ssssWWWsssss
ssssWWWsssss
ssssWWWsssss
sssssWWWssss
sssssWWWssss
sssssWWWssss
ssssssssssss
ssssssssssss
Xsssssssssss
But for a dwarf to walk from the nearest workshop to the furthest item (@ "X", lower left), it's 6 tiles there and 6 back to/from the center of the nearest workshop. For the "farther" workshop, it's only worse.

If, on the other hand, you had this across 6 levels, with 2 levels of stores each above and below those same 2 workshops (now directly above/below each other), with nearby stairs, now only take a 7x7 area...

Code: [Select]

sssssss
sXsssXs
ssWWWss    (Workshop
ssWWWss       levels, 3 & 4)
sXsssXs
sssssss

sssssss
sXsssXs   
sssssss    (above, 1 & 2,
sssssss            &
sssssss         below, 5 & 6)
sXsssXs
sssssss ...and you not only have more than doubled the storage (258!), but it's now all closer - the furthest storage is now 5 steps away (vs. 6+, above), with a large percentage of storage tiles shifted closer still.

And the more storage you want, the bigger that distance difference becomes - square vs. cube.

Using those stairs to attach to bedrooms for these crafts-dwarfs is only too easy.

For security, one main corridor leading to the stairs above/below, that can be sealed off, prevents too much "fun" if something goes wrong.

Getting creative w/ these over/under workshops is limitless - with or without walls for the shops themselves, doubling/tripling stairs to reduce congestion, whatever.

Then, visual "organization" and finding items is just a matter of up/down a few levels.

[Niddhoger]

As I keep saying... You don't leave the breach open- you immediately find the caverns and them seal them off (construct a wall to re-seal the caverns) until you are ready to deal with them.  This keeps you from trying to make a wing of bedrooms that winds up breaching the caverns and letting an FB into your base later.  It also lets spores AND cavern plants grow in underground dirt.  Thus, you can build a secure underground pasture AND a secure underground tree/herb farm. 

However, the caverns aren't half as scary as you seem to think.  Those giant toads are stopped by a simple cage trap.  I usually do leave an open passageway into hte caverns, but I line the hallway leading to the caverns with ~10 cage traps.  You also build a bridge (linked to a lever in your meeting hall) that will seal off the caverns when raised.  So the giant toads go from being a threat to a source of food and wealth with just a few cage traps- just remember to tame it at least once (to semi-wild) before dragging to the butcher or trying to sell it outright.  Stupid dorfs won't drag the cage to the butcher, but instead try and drag the feral animal there.  When an FB appears, you'll get an announcement and the game will pause.  Get anyone out of the caverns and seal off that bridge- FB's can't break them when raised. 

I should mention that a single armored and mostly-trained (doesn't need to be legendary or even in masterwork steel) can take out the lower tiers of FBs.  I'm talking about the fleshy/grime/filth beasts that lack webbing, fire breath, or syndromes.  They are worth hundreds of food too

[Corona688]

I don't like building all my floors directly against each other, because I like to play with pressurized systems.  One accidental cave in or mining accident can cross 30 z levels if you build that densely, and flood them consecutively.  I like to leave solid layers every 2-3 levels, and more if anything delicate like pressurized magma lies beneath.

I'm still trying to perfect an underground power delivery system.  Waterwheels driven from anything but a river can be frustratingly inconsistent.  (I don't use water reactors.)  I wish there was a way to place and test machinery in the arena...

[Niddhoger]

What... could you possibly be attempting to collapse AND flood your fort with that much consistency? Extra layers won't help with flooding either- hatches are what helps there.  Collapsing multiple floors onto each other is also something a little hard to do accidentally.  Go to the wiki and study up what does and does not provide support (diagonal access, grates, bridges- none of these support floors).  Making proper use of vertical space is crucial to raising efficiency in DF- once you can safely attempt... w/e project you are doing, you won't have to build such a horribly inefficient fort that needs massive amounts of walking distance between your workshop level and your storage level 6+ layers below.   

[Corona688]

I don't mean collapsing multiple floors INTO each other.  I mean, when Urist McMoodyCrafter wants shells on an antarctic glacier, and you have to cave a floor tile into his shop -- how many layers of floor will it punch through?  All of them, including everything and everyone in the way, until it finds a solid, un-dug tile

[Niddhoger]

Uh... why are you collapsing floors onto someone? The best way to deal with insane dorfs is to have every mood-able workshop sealable.  Usually this is just a door (or hatch) that can be locked.  They'll eventually die of thirst.  Unlock door and bury him.  No fort-destroying antics needed. 

[Corona688]

Whatever you want.  It's a matter of preference.  Just remember that a mining accident can punch through 20 of your paper thin stone layers.

[Niddhoger]

I have never collapsed one floor through multiple others on accident- I didn't even know you could do it till someone mentioned it as a quick way to build magma pistons.  Instead of skipping every-other floor so you can safely collapse a tile to kill a moody-dorf that can't access materials... isn't it so much easier to use those floors (drastically cutting down travel times) and just use doors and hatches to seal up crazies!? Its not like needing to kill strange mooders happens every day. 

[Trebor1503]

I build large stockpiles on my mining levels and designate them for specific stone. Then I set up small stockpiles right next to my workshops that take from these. This allows me to get material right where I need it without my Dorfs traveling long distances to fill large stockpiles early on.

Also, I build my floors dedicated to like items (bedrooms, masons, carpenters, etc) around a central stair that has a bend in it before my cavern breach (so I can trap the bottom for the nasties that climb up).

[NullForceOmega]

My fortresses are laid out in two-three specific levels:

First, in the soil layers, a farm level completely given over to all facets of food and animal-related production.

Second, somewhere in the stone layers, usually above the first cavern, the main floor, with a huge 15xn hall that three distinct areas branch off of, housing (a horizontal layout with a hospital in the middle, 3-wide hallways around, and then 3x5 bedrooms on the outside, vertical copies of this layer are stacked as necessary), the grand dining hall (variable size, depends on what kind of mood I'm in), and the main workshops (1 each of mason, mechanic, jeweler, crafts, carpentry, bowyer, loom, and clothier, storage areas are stacked vertically above and below as needed and possible), usually once justice goes live the prison will also be on this level.

Third, in the depths, near the magma sea, will be a vast magma furnace/forge operation (because I effing hate pumpstacks, and don't like screwing around with caveins.)

And that's it, no attempt at efficiency, no fantastic underground terraforming projects (though I will wall off the first and third caverns, sometimes the second if I'm not feeling Fun), the surface usually ends up with constructed barracks, walls, frequently a large bridge (no, not the 'g' kind) because I like rivers, sometimes a dining hall or statue garden, and the main trade depot.

[Trebor1503]

On my last few forts I have built a "great hall". It is 3 levels high. On the highest and middle levels is it a 1x walkway around a open space 12x12. Off the walkway are small 3x3 rooms setup as offices and private dining spaces. On the lowest level it is a "regular" 14x14 dinning room with 4 4x4 cutouts in the sides with fireplaces (charcoal producing workshops) in the sides.

The I smooth and carve all three levels, maybe dig some 1x1 holes in the walls for statues to sit, and mostly try to make a really tall great hall for my Dwarfs.

[Albedo]

On my last few forts I have built a "great hall". It is 3 levels high... The I smooth and carve all three levels...

Used to be that rooms only took their value from 1 z-level, and "2+ story" rooms were not part of the value equation - is that still the case?

On the highest and middle levels is it a 1x walkway around a open space 12x12. Off the walkway are small 3x3 rooms setup as offices and private dining spaces. On the lowest level it is a "regular" 14x14 dinning room with 4 4x4 cutouts in the sides with fireplaces (charcoal producing workshops) in the sides... maybe dig some 1x1 holes in the walls for statues to sit, and mostly try to make a really tall great hall for my Dwarfs.
Even if the extra z-levels don't add to room value, its the morally proper way to do something like this. It's not gaming, it's a minor project. Respect! 

[smithist]

I believe that's still right. Room value is determined by what falls within the designation and you can't designate across z-levels. Which isn't to say that's not a rad and noble pursuit.

[angelious]

i usually try link mine so that the production quarters are all close to their respective stockpile. normal loadout is something along the lines of:

 trade depot serving as the entrance., leads to a door that takes you underground one level where you get the main hall where i place my produced goods and  my military, then there on the left of the main hall i usually place my farms. linked to that is my food stockpile and linked to that is the dining room , on the right side i place my metal production, one step upwards from main hall is where i station wood production.

under that i have the living quarters and medical bay. i also try to split the beds into different living quarters where for instance metalsmiths have a close staircase that leads to metal factory and woodsmiths are near the wood smithies.


its a pain to set up in the long run. but i find it easy and effective to use.

[falcn]

I usually build vertical fortresses around the 3x3 staircase in the center of the map.
Major stockpiles are big squares placed around that staircase, separated by Z-levels.
My Trade Depot is located deep underground, adjacent to the main staircase, close to my main stockpiles.
Saves you a ton of dwarf-hours on hauling.