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Dead or not dead?

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Asea, you lazy git...
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Total Members Voted: 8


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Author Topic: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-Dead. Please Lock.  (Read 104325 times)

Funk

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #915 on: December 13, 2015, 10:25:36 am »

I believe a patrol bomber is more important at the moment since our main problem is going to be the naval war. Even so, I don't particularly like using big-gun fighters (like the Ju-87G or the Mosquito variant) since I believe rockets to be more effective and flexible. Even more so when you're able to mount them onto your normal fighters with only slight performance losses when not using them.
Rockets will take a lot of work to get them working, where as a gun will be much faster.


We need a large calibre round, some thing in-between 7.62R and 20mm for heavy machine and sniper use.
A bullet in the 12-14mm with a focus on long range accuracy is what we need.
Go for the classics?

Im fine with that gun but i don't want us to just make our own copy.

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Also, on needing a larger round than 7.62x54r, if you look at just diameter theres the .45 rounds and the shotguns...

Also, there where 20mm snipers, and still are some in use. Plus, with rifle-caliber rounds being seen as "heavy" rounds these days...
Sure, there are .45 pistol and the shotgun rounds. They're probably rather ineffective as sniper weapons though :-P
And while there were 20mm sniper (well, anti-tank) rifle rounds, they make the weapons heavy and ineffective rather quickly. So if we get access to the M2, I'd say we should probably use a 7.62mm sniper rifle (just a mosin with sights) and maybe, maybe build a 12.7mm anti-materiel rifle.
[/quote]

What about a new round of 11.43 x 54mm? we can just scale up our rifles.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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3_14159

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #916 on: December 13, 2015, 03:33:15 pm »

Rockets will take a lot of work to get them working, where as a gun will be much faster.
I don't really think so. We'd need to redesign the fighter around the gun.

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Im fine with that gun but i don't want us to just make our own copy.
I'd rather we buy a license to produce it. That'd save us a design action.

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What about a new round of 11.43 x 54mm? we can just scale up our rifles.
Why do we even need a new round? For sniping, our mosins are sufficient (at least, once we have optics). For anti-tank use, anti-tank rifles are (or are going to be) less than optimal. I'd rather we design a new general purpose rifle instead of a sniper rifle.
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Funk

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #917 on: December 13, 2015, 05:15:51 pm »

Rockets will take a lot of work to get them working, where as a gun will be much faster.
I don't really think so. We'd need to redesign the fighter around the gun.
We dont have to redesign the fighter, look at all the ww2 planes with cannons all of them just bolted the cannon on.
Now yes the fire storm is slow and it could be much more aerodynamic, it does have good armour and lots of power.
Just the nose will need to be changed to mount a cannon.

A nose mount will be simple and smallish, probably not much heavier than the 4 cannons it replaces.

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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Kot

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #918 on: December 13, 2015, 05:18:58 pm »

A nose mount will be simple and smallish, probably not much heavier than the 4 cannons it replaces.
410 with 5cm BK from 1944 in 1938.
EDIT: Whatever, due to how bloody complicated is this thing I had no idea how your plane looked like.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 05:21:35 pm by Kot »
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3_14159

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #919 on: December 13, 2015, 05:38:20 pm »

We dont have to redesign the fighter, look at all the ww2 planes with cannons all of them just bolted the cannon on.
Now yes the fire storm is slow and it could be much more aerodynamic, it does have good armour and lots of power.
Just the nose will need to be changed to mount a cannon.
Indeed, several planes had gun pods mounted on their wings. Yet, if you can mount a gun pod on the wings you have mass allotment and structure that could also mount rockets - and a gun pod always results in a worse performance due to aerodynamic changes. So do mounted rockets, of couse, but to a much lighter extent which is almost completely gone when fired.

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A nose mount will be simple and smallish, probably not much heavier than the 4 cannons it replaces.
Comparing the BK5 to the equivalent German 20mm gun means about 540kg vs 171kg for four, so about three times the weight. Including ammunition (240 shots total for the 20mm cannons) means about 200kg for them. In comparison, the BK5 projectile weights about 1.5kg - so if you want anything approaching useful loadouts, you probably need about 600kg (40 shots). In comparison, you could mount ten HFARs for the same weight.
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Kot

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #920 on: December 13, 2015, 05:39:36 pm »

We dont have to redesign the fighter, look at all the ww2 planes with cannons all of them just bolted the cannon on.
Now yes the fire storm is slow and it could be much more aerodynamic, it does have good armour and lots of power.
Just the nose will need to be changed to mount a cannon.
Indeed, several planes had gun pods mounted on their wings. Yet, if you can mount a gun pod on the wings you have mass allotment and structure that could also mount rockets - and a gun pod always results in a worse performance due to aerodynamic changes. So do mounted rockets, of couse, but to a much lighter extent which is almost completely gone when fired.
You can eject the gun pods too, sometimes. The Hs.129 had this feature with the 75mm gun, I think.
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Funk

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #921 on: December 13, 2015, 05:58:21 pm »

A nose mount will be simple and smallish, probably not much heavier than the 4 cannons it replaces.
410 with 5cm BK from 1944 in 1938.
EDIT: Whatever, due to how bloody complicated is this thing I had no idea how your plane looked like.
It looks some thing like a
Spoiler:  Saab J 21 (click to show/hide)
or a
Spoiler: Henschel Hs P.75
(click to show/hide)

Gun pods are a good idea but the fire storm is set up for nose mounted weapons.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Maegil

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #922 on: December 13, 2015, 06:05:26 pm »

+1 to the new tank.
For the new planes i'd like a new firestorm model for ground-attack with one big gun in the nose.
I believe a patrol bomber is more important at the moment since our main problem is going to be the naval war. Even so, I don't particularly like using big-gun fighters (like the Ju-87G or the Mosquito variant) since I believe rockets to be more effective and flexible. Even more so when you're able to mount them onto your normal fighters with only slight performance losses when not using them.
Actually, and as much as I regret to say (I don't really like the idea, but, hey, eventually the brits made the Schnellbomber concept work), the Mosquito was quite the awesome plane, and it did had its uses.
In the ground attack case, I'd say "horses for courses", rockets are great against infantry and buildings, but too inaccurate to reliably hit a targeted tank, and large gun strafing was well proven by the Sturmovik (BTW, we should see if Stalin will let us make these).

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That depends whether we're breaking the temporal technical paradigms or not
We built an almost-IFV in 1934; I don't think we ever adhered to the paradigms :-)
Indeed... Then again, it might have been just one of those anachronistic inventions - you know, like Leonardo da Vinci's parachute, or the S35... ;)

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at that time, there were fast light and cruiser tanks, supposed to fill in the cavalry role (Pz I, II and III, Soviet BT and American M2 tanks), more armored slow infantry tanks generally armed with howitzers (StuG III, Pz.IV, Matilda), and lumbering heavy tanks designed to take on fortifications (about the only thing they could actually catch up to) or anything that came at them (KV-1, Char B1).
The medium tank came about when field experience showed that cruiser tanks actually had to be able to shrug off at least some hits and the infantry tanks were the ones present when breakthroughs were achieved, so there was a need for an "universal" tank with plenty of armor, but also mobile and well armed - this can be seen clearly on the evolution of the Pz. IV.
I definitely agree (except slightly for the StuG part; you're probably thinking about the StuH or the very early StuG version).
To expand, the combat paradigm was to use the infantry tanks to punch a hole into the enemy lines (for which they needed firepower and armour), one which the cruiser tanks could then exploit (for which they needed speed).
However, even with the (usual) distinction into cavalry and infantry tanks, there were some early attempts on medium tanks, like the French S35, a fairly fast (40/32km/h) tank armed with a 47mm cannon and about 47/40mm of armour.
Alternatively, we might designate it as an infantry tank but recognize that - since I really don't want to add another user of the SDE M1933 engine - with the new engine, it's going to go fast enough.
To be frank, I'd very much like to develop  a 250HP and a 500hp engine to complement our current 50~750hp gap, making sure that they are immediately compatible with the current. This time, though, maybe we should enforce these requirements with the threat of having the design team draw lots to see who would go mine gold for the winter if they screw up?

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At this point we only have a tactical dive bomber, so it's a good idea. Instead of a FW200, however, I'd rather go for something a bit smaller and both less fragile and more expendable, with only two engines instead of four... By this time, the B-18 Bolo (a weaponized DC-2) had just entered service but was soon considered underpowered and too small; however the larger DC-3 was proving to be a revolutionary design (actually so good that even 70 years later it's still in operation).
True, the CD-3 wasn't converted into a bomber but into a transport, but we have a 1500hp engine (the DC-3 had two 1100-1200hp engines), and we can come up with something with a bit more wingspan to increase the lift and range.
That's a good idea. How about we build something similar to the B-25 or the Wellington? Twin-engined, medium bomber?
Yes, the Wellington would be perfect.


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Aside that, fleet reconnaissance could be drastically increased by Catalina-type seaplanes, but given our weather, that may not be so feasible. Instead, I'd suggest a cheap folding wing catapult-launched seaplane fighter-bomber/ASW plane - the swell wouldn't prevent the launch, and if the conditions are too rough to land for recovery the pilot can just bail out near the mother ship (which could even carry more than one in the hold, even if not launch them quickly).
You mean something like a CAM-Ship for merchant defense or the battleships' seaplane launcher? For combat scouting, this might work. On the other hand, by introducing a Catalina-like design (which already had 4000km of range) we get more space on our ships, and we can still expand the range with seaplane tenders. That is, we station a few seaplane tenders 500-1000km out. If the weather permits it, the plane can land and refuel (and the crew rest) there. If not, they have to return to the main airport. On the other hand, a seaplane tender for a Catalina-sized plane might be very big and therefore expensive.
Worse than just expensive, a seaplane simply can't develop enough speed to take off if the sea is even slightly rough, which if I understand correctly would be most of the time; that's why I suggested a catapult design.


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I fully agree, but we need better electronics.
In which way? Higher quality, higher quantity, ...?
Both, but more importantly, more advanced. The miniaturization issue, and the cavity magnetron thingie for centimetric radars, remember?

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I say that we just buy some DC-3's or some Lisunov Li-'s2 (the metric model) there a civil air craft so we can buy them with out weapons or engines and out fit them our selves.
Or just use them as a transport plane. Yeah, those might both work.
Yes, I agree. We'll need an airlift and transport plane anyway...

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We need a large calibre round, some thing in-between 7.62R and 20mm for heavy machine and sniper use.
A bullet in the 12-14mm with a focus on long range accuracy is what we need.
Go for the classics?
Nah, it fires too slowly. If we're to use it also in aircraft and as pintle AA on armor, it really should have more RoF.

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Sorry for the wait on this, work is being a pain. I should have it done by next weekend though...
No worries.
We should only thank you for taking the time, not put undue extra pressures on your RL. If you're too busy, though, maybe you should consider letting someone else temporarily take over.
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Funk

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #923 on: December 13, 2015, 06:20:10 pm »

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Quote
We need a large calibre round, some thing in-between 7.62R and 20mm for heavy machine and sniper use.
A bullet in the 12-14mm with a focus on long range accuracy is what we need.
Go for the classics?
Nah, it fires too slowly. If we're to use it also in aircraft and as pintle AA on armor, it really should have more RoF.

We have a 20mm for AA and the 7.62mm can be used in aircraft turrets until we get powered turrets than can use our 20mm.

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Sorry for the wait on this, work is being a pain. I should have it done by next weekend though...
No worries.
We should only thank you for taking the time, not put undue extra pressures on your RL. If you're too busy, though, maybe you should consider letting someone else temporarily take over.
[/quote]
Don't worry we all let time table slide.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

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Maegil

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #924 on: December 13, 2015, 08:36:53 pm »

Correction regarding the Lisunov Li-2 and the Il-2 Sturmovik: the Li-2 is a 1939 design, and the Il-2 was only introduced in 1941, so no help there...

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We need a large calibre round, some thing in-between 7.62R and 20mm for heavy machine and sniper use.
A bullet in the 12-14mm with a focus on long range accuracy is what we need.
Go for the classics?
Nah, it fires too slowly. If we're to use it also in aircraft and as pintle AA on armor, it really should have more RoF.
We have a 20mm for AA and the 7.62mm can be used in aircraft turrets until we get powered turrets than can use our 20mm.
The reason why the .50 was introduced was precisely because the 7.62mm was too weak to shoot down WWI planes. Anyhow, I fudged the model dates, was thinking of the 1930's 450rpm and just now realized that
Quote from: Wiki
The .50 AN/M2 light-barrel aircraft Browning used in planes had a rate of fire of approximately 800 rounds per minute
So yes, it would be enough for fighters and bomber turrets.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2015, 09:21:35 pm by Maegil »
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What does Maegil have in common with a frag grenade?
Answer: does not suffer fools gladly.

Your friendly mysanthropic machete-toting sail-sailing sailor nut job.
Also, a Serial Editor. Just in case, do check my previous post to see if I didn't change or added to it. I do that, a lot...

Funk

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #925 on: December 14, 2015, 09:52:04 am »

The reason why the .50 was introduced was precisely because the 7.62mm was too weak to shoot down WWI planes. Anyhow, I fudged the model dates, was thinking of the 1930's 450rpm and just now realized that
Quote from: Wiki
The .50 AN/M2 light-barrel aircraft Browning used in planes had a rate of fire of approximately 800 rounds per minute
So yes, it would be enough for fighters and bomber turrets.

Im not keen on .50 cal as it can't carry a usefull chemical payload, but it has a higher muzzle energy and so better range.
And there the turret problem, 20mm guns are too large and heavy for unpowered turrets.

A ww2 plane can take thousands of 7.62mm holes and .50 holes are not much bigger but an explosive 20mm shellwill literally blow the plane apart.
Look at how many 50 cals late war fighters are packing, the US had just added more guns.
What we need is a mix of weapons

.50 cal Mg's for turrets and fighters.
20mm autocannons for both fighter and defence.
30mm+ heavy cannon or rockets for ground attack and to brake up bomber formations.

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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

Unofficial slogan of Bay 12 Games.  

Death to the false emperor a warhammer40k SG

Aseaheru

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #926 on: December 14, 2015, 12:11:43 pm »

Dident you guys just try getting the M2?
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Maegil

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #927 on: December 14, 2015, 12:38:59 pm »

They wouldn't let us have it since we're at war. So what - we'll make an even better HMG and not let them have that. There!

In any case, instead of the imperialistic 12.7x99mm BMG we can make it 12.7x108mm like proper communists.
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What does Maegil have in common with a frag grenade?
Answer: does not suffer fools gladly.

Your friendly mysanthropic machete-toting sail-sailing sailor nut job.
Also, a Serial Editor. Just in case, do check my previous post to see if I didn't change or added to it. I do that, a lot...

Funk

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #928 on: December 14, 2015, 01:25:30 pm »

They wouldn't let us have it since we're at war. So what - we'll make an even better HMG and not let them have that. There!

In any case, instead of the imperialistic 12.7x99mm BMG we can make trade for it 12.7x108mm like proper communists.
Fixed that for you.
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Agree, plus that's about the LAST thing *I* want to see from this kind of game - author spending valuable development time on useless graphics.

Unofficial slogan of Bay 12 Games.  

Death to the false emperor a warhammer40k SG

Aseaheru

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Re: Department of Armaments-Weapon Design Game-First half of First Half of 1938
« Reply #929 on: December 15, 2015, 07:25:29 am »

And here is, finally, the second half of the first half of 1938!

Second Half of First Half of 1938
Before I forget again, have the map of the invasion situation as it currently stands. Rather, have it when dropbox starts working again.Finally map!

Spoiler: Current Requests (click to show/hide)
Spoiler: Personnel (click to show/hide)

 In other news, I cant figure out the materials costs anymore...
 Maegil, all those (middlings) where really confusing as they where all basics. As a result, the personnel tab has been updated to try to help prevent these issues in future.
 Also, Pi, it seems that some of the numbering for factories is confused. Where you calling line one line zero or something?
« Last Edit: December 15, 2015, 05:14:44 pm by Aseaheru »
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