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Author Topic: Paid Mods -- Round 4: McGregor vs mAAAyweather  (Read 102317 times)

Propman

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #120 on: April 24, 2015, 04:21:18 am »

Get off it, mate. First of all, you're not entitled to free mods simply because they're mods or because you want them to be free. The modders are the ones putting in the hard work creating content for you to enjoy and for that you should be appreciative. If they suddenly decide they want to get paid for your work it's not your place to bitch and moan - you should just suck it up and accept it. Maybe you'll support the guy who gave you your enjoyment or maybe you won't, but he's not your slave to provide you free stuff out of obligation or the goodness of his heart.

A lot harder to put hard work into mods when you can't trust other modders with your own work anymore. Consider how many individual assets goes into making a mod: models, textures, sound files, and scripting; many fellows can script, some can even both model, texture, and rig a whole working object into the game, and for those who are willing to put that amount of effort the action is commendable. But, the average modder cannot do all these things at once, and requires assets other then what they can create alone in order to complete their mods.

If modding becomes polarized (perhaps the most tragic portion of this ordeal) between payed assets and free assets which are limited to be used for mods which are also released for free, these fledgling modders will either have to pay money out of their own pocket to complete their works, or disregard the system entierly, placing them in between a rock and a hard place. This also puts limits to how complex a mod can be; thousands of assets that appear to only cost a few cents start to stack up into hundreds of dollars worth of content, for a single mod that might break even if enough people decide to buy it. And this is assuming that they don't simply pirate the content outright, undermining the supposed "point" of this venture in the first place.

Also, there's the gammut of the fact that in order for a modder to profit from this system, they have to make at least 400$ worth of revenue; until that point, Steam witholds all money earned, releasing it in increments of $100.00 USD each. If sturgeon's law has any effect on things, the average user won't see a nickel while Valve and related parties reap all the profits from their works; this means that say, some fellow decided to release an unofficial patch to fix some game mods? At best, this costs the developers of the game nothing and they in essence have someone develop their game for free, at worst they're actually gaining revenue from putting forth a lack of effort, ultimately degrading the ethics of mainline developers, and placing content development on the burden of the modders.

Allowing modders to get paid allows these people to remain working on mods more often, plus it could get entirely new people into the modding scene. Then people will start competing to make the best mods at the lowest prices and the consumer benefits in the end. Capitalism at work, right there.

The sort of people you seem to be refering to, those who would attempt to join in order to make a profit, are unlikey to make the jump for a multitude of reasons. First of all, joining in late to the party gives them the above complications of having to pay other people for assets in order for a mod in the first place if they want to sell their mods at all: rather then by their imaginations, modders will be hampered by their budgets, without the knowledge benefits of an actual game developing studio. If anything, the only people who would turn any sort of a profit would be the elite who managed to scrape a high ranking during the early period of this movement and perhaps model makers if they're lucky and not instead have their models taken for no compensation.

As a modder myself, I do concur we should be allowed to ask for money for our work (remember to donate, lads), but certainly not with this poor excuse of a system. In fact, there wasn't any quarrel over the donation system when it was first instated, so why change it? Furthermore, the state of the community would indicate that any modder that actually attempted to seriously pursue this route would also be ostracized from a significant part of not only the userbase, but also the modder-base as well. Regardless of how you feel over this, is money really something worth sundering the community apart for?
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Mech#4

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #121 on: April 24, 2015, 04:29:56 am »

I wonder whether the mods that would be purchased would be all compatible with each other. If two mods are bought but don't work with each other then at some time you're not going to be making use of half of your purchase. Assuming that since you bought a mod you would like to use it whenever you played the game, like official DLC and expansion packs. Wouldn't this mean that over time you would need to buy many previously released mods because they all require each other to some degree?
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Here's a thread listing Let's Players found on the internet. Feel free to add.
List of Notable Mods. Feel free to add.

Orange Wizard

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #122 on: April 24, 2015, 04:40:58 am »

Nope. Valve straight up says that not all mods will be compatible and might break each other at the user's expense.
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scrdest

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #123 on: April 24, 2015, 04:58:00 am »

Shot in the foot by Bethesda. Facilitating paywalling of any mod content for SKYRIM of all games is like that one scene in Blazing Saddles where Bart takes himself hostage - Bethesda games have such a big modding community because (a) modding is relatively easy, (b) there's high demand for mods because vanilla is just plain goddamn boring after a while.

Skyrim is, right now, in a comfortable spot, where the decision can't really hurt it all that much, but if they were ever going to make the next game - if it were done in the same design philosophy as everything until now - they are taking out one of the main appeals of the entire damn game.

Get off it, mate. First of all, you're not entitled to free mods simply because they're mods or because you want them to be free. The modders are the ones putting in the hard work creating content for you to enjoy and for that you should be appreciative. If they suddenly decide they want to get paid for your work it's not your place to bitch and moan - you should just suck it up and accept it. Maybe you'll support the guy who gave you your enjoyment or maybe you won't, but he's not your slave to provide you free stuff out of obligation or the goodness of his heart.

He's not my slave - but neither am I his. As he is not entitled to provide it for free, nobody is entitled to appreciate it for a fee. If a mod-maker *demands* I pay him for a mod - a mod I couldn't even test to see if it works at all - then I... simply won't get the mod. No loss, no gain, except if enough people decide likewise the dev just wasted his work on something that gets ignored.
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UXLZ

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #124 on: April 24, 2015, 05:17:20 am »

Did anyone watch the part in TB's video where he talks about random people just wholesale stealing other's mods and uploading them under their own name?
Valve truly has opened the gates to hell on this one. Let's hope they can still be closed...

This chain from the PCMR subreddit is pretty good. Also a nice summary of despair.

http://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/33mv7h/steam_paid_mods_megathread/cqmfl38
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 05:50:15 am by UXLZ »
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UXLZ

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #125 on: April 24, 2015, 05:49:41 am »

Mmh, if I was intending on doing something like that I'd probably do it on a dummy account through a public network. Then again, they may be too careless.
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Andres

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #126 on: April 24, 2015, 06:06:33 am »

-snip-
Not going to argue here because they're all very valid claims but I will clarify that I didn't know about the $400 requirement at the time.

Get off it, mate. First of all, you're not entitled to free mods simply because they're mods or because you want them to be free. The modders are the ones putting in the hard work creating content for you to enjoy and for that you should be appreciative. If they suddenly decide they want to get paid for your work it's not your place to bitch and moan - you should just suck it up and accept it. Maybe you'll support the guy who gave you your enjoyment or maybe you won't, but he's not your slave to provide you free stuff out of obligation or the goodness of his heart.

He's not my slave - but neither am I his. As he is not entitled to provide it for free, nobody is entitled to appreciate it for a fee. If a mod-maker *demands* I pay him for a mod - a mod I couldn't even test to see if it works at all - then I... simply won't get the mod. No loss, no gain, except if enough people decide likewise the dev just wasted his work on something that gets ignored.
Yup, that's fine. They get no money - you get no mod. You get no mod - they get no money. Seems fair.
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Urist McScoopbeard

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #127 on: April 24, 2015, 07:10:17 am »

Just responding to something from the WTF thread.

The other problem with he steam thing is that it will discourage people from making free mods. The percent of mods which are free will drop to under 100. That is not acceptable.
Get off it, mate. First of all, you're not entitled to free mods simply because they're mods or because you want them to be free. The modders are the ones putting in the hard work creating content for you to enjoy and for that you should be appreciative. If they suddenly decide they want to get paid for your work it's not your place to bitch and moan - you should just suck it up and accept it. Maybe you'll support the guy who gave you your enjoyment or maybe you won't, but he's not your slave to provide you free stuff out of obligation or the goodness of his heart.
Besides, a lot of people - a lot of talented people - stop working on mods because of real-life issues, sometimes personal but a lot of the time financial. Allowing modders to get paid allows these people to remain working on mods more often, plus it could get entirely new people into the modding scene. Then people will start competing to make the best mods at the lowest prices and the consumer benefits in the end. Capitalism at work, right there.
The one expressly bad thing about this is how Valve is taking a full 75% of the modders' income which is just ludicrous to me.

fakedit: Another way to look at it is this: paying for mods should be no different than paying for expansion packs, seeing as mods are pretty much fan-made expansion packs in the first place.

have you read any of this thread at all? Like, Multiple go pretty in depth as to why mods should be free multiple times.
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #128 on: April 24, 2015, 07:42:58 am »

.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2015, 09:41:26 pm by penguinofhonor »
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Cthulhu

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #129 on: April 24, 2015, 07:56:47 am »

By the rest of the world's standards 75% is a pretty small take when you consider that the takers are hosting and marketing the content and also provided the game and tools that allow them to mod in the first place. 

Music artists get around half that for a from-whole-cloth product that probably took a year or more to make.
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SealyStar

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #130 on: April 24, 2015, 08:11:26 am »

By the rest of the world's standards 75% is a pretty small take when you consider that the takers are hosting and marketing the content and also provided the game and tools that allow them to mod in the first place. 

Music artists get around half that for a from-whole-cloth product that probably took a year or more to make.
... And that's why we have so many songs like "Have a Cigar" thanking the music industry for its ethics and generosity.

The presence of shitty practices in one industry does not justify their introduction to new ones.
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Cthulhu

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #131 on: April 24, 2015, 08:23:38 am »

I'm saying that 25% is a really good cut considering it's content produced from an existing codebase with existing tools, hosted, marketed, and made available by a third party.

I'm saying that it's not a shitty practice.
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scrdest

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #132 on: April 24, 2015, 08:28:14 am »

By the rest of the world's standards 75% is a pretty small take when you consider that the takers are hosting and marketing the content and also provided the game and tools that allow them to mod in the first place. 

Music artists get around half that for a from-whole-cloth product that probably took a year or more to make.
The availability of mod tools is a selling point of the game - at least the game in question. The accessibility of mods is added value for both customers and providers, and the cost of releasing those tools is negligible, as they are literally dev tools. The customers are already paying however much the company wants for the game+tools packaged within.

If hosting and marketing cost so much, then Steam Workshop is uncompetitive, as there are sites perfectly willing to perform the same service for free without much difference in quality.

Musicians' situation is different - the tools of the trade are yours and yours alone, provided by a separate deal with a third party (either instrument or soft/hardware creator), while the process of making a record demands active input of a number of professionals who are not, themselves, musicians - producers, sound engineers, mixing engineers, mastering engineers, directors, a whole lot of cruft like photos or printing booklets, distribution network... all of whom need to be paid.

So that analogy is more relevant to game developers who program the game itself, rather than mod-makers. A better-fitting analogy would be an artist using samples of music on the recording to create a distinct work of their own and release it on, I'unno, Youtube.
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Frumple

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #133 on: April 24, 2015, 08:36:06 am »

I'm saying that 25% is a really good cut considering it's content produced from an existing codebase with existing tools, hosted, marketed, and made available by a third party.

I'm saying that it's not a shitty practice.
And... you're going to have people that disagree. I would, personally -- the modder has already paid for the access to the codebase, tools, hosting, and market. That's what they did when they bought the game on steam. Which is when the publisher and host got their cuts. It's entirely a shitty practice to backtrack on that and tell people to pay more for something they already had. It's doubly a shitty practice to do so and then straight bugger the person doing the work in question on their cut. This is especially true when the only service that can actually be considered added at this point -- the cash transaction between mod user and mod maker -- is something we're incredibly bloody aware (thanks, paypal! And credit card companies. Banks. Pretty much everything that deals with cash transfers.) doesn't take a 75% cut to function.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2015, 08:46:30 am by Frumple »
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forsaken1111

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Re: Steam Workshop - Now supporting pay-for mods
« Reply #134 on: April 24, 2015, 08:44:05 am »

I'm actually kind of excited about this whole thing because maybe it will force lawmakers to confront the hot mess that is current copyright law when applied to digital media and derivative works
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