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Author Topic: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization  (Read 31711 times)

Zangi

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #30 on: April 22, 2015, 07:47:13 pm »

They don't dare announce it; as soon as the government remembers that NASA exists the left and right will hold hands to strip away the last of their funding.
Obviously, the counter-measure to that is to have the Chinese threaten to fund NASA in Murrica's place.
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4maskwolf

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #31 on: April 22, 2015, 09:01:32 pm »

I'm going to reserve judgement until I have more information, but me sitting in an armchair talking out of my ass says that we probably haven't just stumbled upon faster than light travel.  Even if we have created and Alcubierre drive, the fact is that creating one which can transport a spaceship properly will likely take years upon years of development, and there is the simple fact that we humans have stopped looking to space as the new horizon to be crossed.  NASA has been repeatedly defunded over the years, and in the end I can't see us being able to launch a spacecraft to another system, even if this does turn out to yield FTL technology, within the next 20-30 years.  The fact of the matter is that there are too many problems that exist here on earth, and I think it will be hard for a lot of people to look to the stars.  Beyond that, FTL travel will open up an entire other can of worms about the politics and ethics of space travel and colonization, which will take quite a while to sort out in any meaningful way.

Oh, and here's a thing:

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/outthere/2014/08/06/nasa-validate-imposible-space-drive-word/#.VThTKhhHarU
« Last Edit: April 22, 2015, 09:07:30 pm by 4maskwolf »
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #32 on: April 22, 2015, 09:07:37 pm »

Looking to space is all that will save us. The modern environmentalist movement was basically started by Blue Marble and Earthrise. We need the endeavor. Otherwise we'll squabble ourselves into the grave. There's something fundamentally different about space exploration, something that changes people's perspective and gives them something to hope for.
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Tawa

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #33 on: April 22, 2015, 09:11:12 pm »

Is there actually any evidence an emdrive can get into space in the first place?
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4maskwolf

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #34 on: April 22, 2015, 09:13:25 pm »

Looking to space is all that will save us. The modern environmentalist movement was basically started by Blue Marble and Earthrise. We need the endeavor. Otherwise we'll squabble ourselves into the grave. There's something fundamentally different about space exploration, something that changes people's perspective and gives them something to hope for.
Oh I completely agree with you, what I'm saying is that so many people are focused on the here and don't look forward to the future.

LordBucket

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2015, 09:46:10 pm »

Thanks for all the analysis LB. I am quite excited now. Has there been any official announcement or has it appeared in any major media outlet?

Wired, the Register, Popular Mechanics, some papers by researchers at various universities...but if you if you spend enough time digging through all the "he said she said" referral mess that is internet news, and filter out the "questionable" sources, you're left with this from NASA's Eagleworks propulsion lab in Texas:

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp?R=20140006052

"Anomalous Thrust Production from an RF Test Device Measured on a Low-Thrust Torsion Pendulum"

"Test results indicate that the RF resonant cavity thruster design, which is unique as an electric propulsion device, is producing a force that is not attributable to any classical electromagnetic phenomenon and therefore is potentially demonstrating an interaction with the quantum vacuum virtual plasma."



Which is not quite at the "major announcement" level. It's at the level of "...huh, this seems to work, but I have no idea why and I don't want to risk my reputation by going to the press, so I'm going to report the results and let it go to peer review." Which is the same place that it's been for years. The original RF cavity / quantum vacuum thruster / cannae drive work was done in Britain 15 years ago, and the chinese said they'd seen positive experimental results at least 5 years ago. But the fact that's it's NASA now saying it seems to work has some of us excited that it might be real.

4maskwolf

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2015, 11:12:37 pm »

Oh so that's what that xkcd strip was referencing... I get it now.

wierd

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2015, 11:21:38 pm »

Here's the thought I have often had about the alcubierre metric--

You dont need full negative mass, per se, at the aft of the vehicle.  You just need a slight reduction in the vacuum energy at that location, and a slight increase at the front.  Amusingly, this could help with the "Hey, you are gonna freaking ANNIHILATE whatever planet you stop at bro!" problem that the alcubierre metric supposes will happen, since the combined potentials of both lobes of the metric equal zero, and the "effective" negative mass at the aft of the vessel will magically just vanish once the device is turned off.

You wont get the "Instant accelleration" that you get with the full alcubierre metric based warp drive, but then again, we arent talking the degree of distortion that alcubierre described. We are talking a very small distortion.  That means the drive is only capable of sublight travel, which makes it comply with all the causality rules we have come to know and love-- but it may be capable of giving us a sufficiently large percentage of C in terms of total velocity en-route that interstellar travel is possible without using generational ships by exploiting the time bending effects of special relativity.  (However, we would need to be shooting a freaking lead torpedo to do that, since every little hydrogen atom the vessel came into contact with would have absurd amounts of energy applied to it by the collision with the vessel, and that means crazy radiation on the bow.) Something like 80 to 90% of C would be quite workable for interstellar travel, IIRC. One-way trips, but still doable.

(explanation:  Basically, "normal space" is filled with little energetic particles that jump into and out of existence from spacetime itself. These little bursts of particle-like phenomena are known as "vacuum fluctuations".  It is presumed that this device works by pushing against these particle-like phenomena in the very tiny period of time that they exist, imparting a momentum to them, and in turn, imparting a momentum to the device through the second law of motion. It makes physicists angry, because the vacuum fluctuations then disappear back into spacetime, apparently carrying this kinetic energy with them, and go POOF, leaving no exhaust.  That means energy is either disappearing, or some other major violation of conventional physics of similar "Noooo, that kind of thing does not happen buddy" type thing. That's why the emDrive keeps getting poo-pooed by the physics community, despite the now interesting emperical test data surrounding it. However, if the energy imparted to the virtual particles (vacuum fluctuations) has some impact on the total rate of production, or total density of, these virtual particles between the bow and aft of the device-- then you would end up with something resembling the alcubierre metric, simply because the virtual particle density is a measurement of the energy found in the spacetime at those locations. The device might be working as a kind of "Heat pump" to move energy from one part of spacetime to the other.  This would result in a pocket of spacetime with fewer such particles in it (negative mass in comparison to the spacetime outside the pocket!) and a pocket with more such particles in it (increased mass, compared to the spacetime outside the pocket), which when combined, equal zero.  The degree of the "negative mass" curvature would never reach the kinds of values described for the FTL drive version-- which would require exotic matter of some kind that exhibits genuine antimass, but it would give you a "negative mass like term" for a weaker version, which makes this finding very interesting to me indeed.)



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Bohandas

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2015, 11:45:30 pm »

Looking to space is all that will save us.

Exactly. We could mine put the rest of he cosmos for rare elements and dump all our trash on Mars if only we had the technology
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2015, 11:46:29 pm »

Looking to space is all that will save us.

Exactly. We can mine put the rest of he cosmos for rare elements and dump all our trash on Mars

Nah, Mars is too habitable. I'll put my money on Jupiter being the solar system's main trash dump.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2015, 11:48:57 pm »

We have a very nice solar mass available and you want to pollute the fragile environment of Jupiter?
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Bohandas

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2015, 11:49:34 pm »

I was just thinking of that one line from Futurama: "Mars Day's much better than Earth Day. Throw your garbage wherever you want, it's a big empty planet."
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Sirus

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #42 on: April 22, 2015, 11:54:40 pm »

Eagerly PTW. Maybe I'll be a space trucker someday after all :D
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4maskwolf

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #43 on: April 22, 2015, 11:56:04 pm »

I didn't take a lot of time reviewing the veracity of the source, I was actually planning on posting articles from both sides of the debate before I got sidetracked by legitimate work I have to do.

Playergamer

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Re: Emdrive news: we might be about to become an interstellar civilization
« Reply #44 on: April 23, 2015, 12:09:57 am »

I eriously doubt this can work. It's feels like too much pseudoscience to hope for it to work.
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