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[syvarris]

My opinion on the armory purge is that we need to ask PW questions.  I would support two seperate "back room" armory pages IF PW confirms that there's items we simply cannot obtain at all.  If amps and such are meanth to be obtainable by trusted people like Pancaek, then they shouldn't go in the "unobtainable" list.  But if they are pretty much supposed to be completely unavailable to anyone, they should.

Same for all the items which were supposed to be AM-made.  Can we still obtain longcoats, or reactor tech helmets, or all the other random clutter items?  If so, they go in the "available, but not recommended" list.  If not, they go in the "unavailable" list.


As to who gets to decide what exactly is outdated, and what relative grades are, I partially agree with Nik; it's not a question that should be asked in OOC, because most people don't really know much about the actual effectiveness of armory equipment.  However, I don't think it's just us that are qualified to make good decisions--Radio, Paris, most people who post in Heph OOC, all you guys know your stuff.


Lastly, I think this is pretty clear, but it's been a massive barrier the last few times this discussion came up: I don't think we need to remove items from the armory outright.  Only items which are literally impossible to get should be removed, while all the obtainable worthless crap would just be shuffled to a different page, still available for purchase.

[Parisbre56]

@Aoshima: Thanks for the offer. I might contact you about it when I'm less busy.

It's not that they banned the IP because of what I was doing, you don't have to worry about that. The administrator I contacted seemed OK with it. But he said there was an attack made from the cloud this IP belonged to, so they decided to perma-ban the entire cloud. A bit of an overreaction if you ask me, but I don't know much about servers and even less about JavaScript and HTML, so it's not like my opinion matters.

@syv: Why delete anything? Space is cheap. Just shove it somewhere out of the way, like clothing in a teenager's room.

[Gentlefish]

Posting to watch. Mostly because I'm gnoming up myself.

[syvarris]

@Paris
Deleting things?  I was trying to make it super clear that I don't think we need to delete anything.  I was saying even the stuff which is literally impossible to obtain should be moved to an armory page specifically dedicated to stuff which is literally impossible to obtain.

The way I see it, we should have three pages: The first, containing only things deemed to be good purchases, and possibly things which fill unoccupied roles.  The second would contain all items which are redundant, inferior, or excessively niche.  The third would contain everything which, regardless of its value, is impossible to obtain under normal circumstances.  Nothing would be deleted from the wiki, just moved to a different page.

[Parisbre56]

Ah, yes, I agree. I just misunderstood what you meant by "Remove".

[syvarris]

Here's what Nik and I came up with while looking over the Con and armor sections of the armory.  Nik did the majority of the grading, and I tweaked some.  We did a fair bit of discussion, so I added some of our statements to the relevant items, generally either for context or to highlight places where we disagreed.  Further discussion wouldn't be a bad idea, I think, so I'm posting it here (with Nik's approval).

Armor spoiler doesn't include assaultsuits, but I'd grade them as MODERN/A++.  I might be biased there, though.

Spoiler: Conventional Weapons (click to show/hide)

{{AL|1|Hand Laser}} OBSOLETE/D

{{AL|1|Blaster Pistol}} MODERN/A+

{{AL|2|Red Hand Electrolaser}}MODERN/C
Nik:Alternatively, it could be OUTDATED/C - i.e. requiring an update; albeit not a so urgent one

{{AL|2|Laser Rifle}} OBSOLETE/C

{{AL|2|Gauss Rifle}} OUTDATED/C
Nik (paraphrased):[Requires a modern update.  It should be low hanging fruit--kinetic deathtubes are the easiest projects for tinkerers.]

{{AL|2|Arranger}} MODERN/??

{{AL|3|Universal Chemical Thrower}} MODERN/A+
syv:It's easily capable of disabling a battlesuit at short range, and has amazing versatility unlike BS killers.  Also good for nonlethal use.

{{AL|3|Brisant Gauss Grenade Launcher}} MODERN/B

{{AL|3|Hand Cannon}}MODERN/B-
syv:Both grenade launchers need to be made into a single gun, and then just have an option for a cut-down Brisant on it's wiki page.  Seriously, they're the exact same thing in almost every way except ammunition variety.
Nik:Agreed.

{{AL|4|Repeating Gauss Rifle}} OUTDATED/C-

{{AL|4|Blaster Rifle}} MODERN/A+
Nik:The standard by which all other weapons should be judged. I long for the day when the blaster weapons are surpassed.

{{AL|4|SS Testament LSW}} MODERN/A

{{AL|4|Tesla Arc}} OUTDATED/C
syv:I'd say this is obselete; it's always seemed pretty much identical in role to the UCT.  It's inferior except in extremely specific circumstances.
Nik:I can see this being made into a reuseable 3-token weapon that is several times more powerful than it used to be thanks to blueshards. Still, yeah, right now it's made obselete by the regular flame/chemical-thrower.

{{AL|5|Crystalline Projector}} MODERN/B
syv:I feel like this thing is useless. OUTDATED/D IMO.
Nik (paraphrased):[It can crack a layer of battlesuit plate, and can be very dangerous to large enemies.  Needs a rework.]

{{AL|5|Variable Laser Rifle Spektr}} OUTDATED/C
Nik:I think with a straight rework the price could be brought down "just because" - i.e. with the Council more accustomed to lower priced weapons

{{AL|6|Rocket Rifle}} OUTDATED/C

{{AL|6|Kugelblitz GML}}MODERN/B+
Nik:Or maybe A-. A huge improvement over the infamous HGC.

{{AL|6|Weevil Gun}} MODERN/??

{{AL|6|Solid Light Protection Field}} MODERN/??

{{AL|6|Containment Gun}} MODERN/??

{{AL|7|Sibilus Rocket/Gauss Hybrid Rifle}} OUTDATED/C
syv:Only noted when I started compiling this list, but I think this should be C+.  It's slightly better than Rocket Rifle.

{{AL|8|Blaster Bazooka}} MODERN/A

{{AL|8|Cutting Laser}} OBSOLETE/C

{{AL|8 (6 with own Laser Rifle, 3 with own Tesla Sabre, 1 with both)|Gungnir Electro-laser}} OBSELETE/D
Nik:This isn't a weapon, this is a DIY kit.

{{AL|9|High Energy Projector}} MODERN/B
Nik:Might also be A- or C+. Another one of those "unique" weapons, this one gives a big-ass blast, and is very useful as an entrenching tool. Not sure about combat effectiveness.
syv:Knocks a battlesuit on its ass while melting the entire first layer of plating.

{{AL|9|Brainworm Gun}} MODERN/??

{{AL|9|Auto-Target System}} MODERN/??
Nik:We should move it to Aux

{{AL|10|Heavy Gauss Cannon}} OBSOLETE/D

{{AL|10|Multi-Function Power Gauntlet}} OUTDATED/D
Nik:Is this a real weapon intended for use? Are there any redeeming qualities, any real uses for such a weapon?.. This might be C or even B- if there are, but I couldn't think of any.

{{AL|10|'Doctrine' Shard Autocannon}} MODERN/B+
syv:Better than all weapons close in price, but not as much power-per-token as some cheaper weapons.

{{AL|11|Variable Heavy Laser "Raduga"}} OUTDATED/C
Nik:This was made in line with the Cutting Laser. It needs to be updated.

{{AL|13|Piezoelectric Shard Launcher}} OUTDATED/A-
syv:Obselete/B, IMO.  It's good, but only 'cause everything close in price is crap.
Nik(paraphrased):[It's good against very large targets.]

{{AL|15|Plasma Projector}} OUTDATED(RESTRICTED)/??

{{AL|18|LESHO Rifle}} MODERN/B
Nik:The mother of all overkills. Still, the top of the line Con weapon... that is actually an Aux weapon.

{{AL|20|Fission Instigator}} MODERN/??
Nik:(The father of all overkills (at least, Con ones). Isn't this even based on automanips as well?..)
syv:This thing is laughable.  20 tokens per shot?  And it's almost always an overkill/teamkill?  And you could probably call in an orbital strike anyway.
Nik:So, RESTRICTED then, I guess?

Spoiler: Armors (click to show/hide)

{{AL|First is free|MCP-I|MCP-I Suit}} MODERN/B

{{AL|First is free|Mk I Suit}} OBSOLETE/C

{{AL|First is free for MK suit users|CPSU}} MODERN/B
Nik:This will go when the last Mk item leaves the Armory. For now, though, it is useful.

{{AL|2|Maintenance uniform}}  ?OUTDATED?/B-

{{AL|2|Ablative Armor Plating}} OBSOLETE/C

{{AL|3|Civic Defender's longcoat|Civic Defender's Longcoat}} OBSOLETE/C

{{AL|3|Sharksuit}} MODERN/B+
Nik:Maybe A, but due to general fear of sharkmist, it's underused. I have a feeling that we might be able to improve it - say, by adding a cheap hexsand layer under all the sharkmist, to assuage the "being eaten alive" fears and to increase laser resistance a bit (without increasing the item cost, of course). Still, an excellent item.
syv:That's a good idea, not because it would actually provide any protection, but because it could be perceived to do so.  We already know sharksuits don't harm their wearers, since people have been chopped in half wearing the damn things, but people are still idiots.  So we introduce some cheap upgrade (which does nothing), and say it fixes the (nonexistent) problem.  And then we can remove the stupid warning about it eating you.

{{AL|3|MCP-II|MCP-II Suit}} MODERN/A-
Nik:I am biased, so this could probably be more like B+.
syv:A+, at least for humans, in my opinion.

{{AL|5|Mk II Suit}} OBSOLETE/B-

{{AL|?|EHP Helmet}} OBSOLETE (UNAVAILABLE)/??

{{AL|?|Reactor Tech Helmet}} OBSOLETE (UNAVAILABLE)/??

{{AL|8|MCP-Aero Suit "Fat Sparrow"}} MODERN/B
Nik:Discount version of a Mk III. I'd give it a C+, but it singlehandedly saved M21 with its operational range, so I am a bit obliged to like it.
syv:I love the concept with this, but it's just too close in price to the Mk III to be practical, considering that it's dead weight when in vacuum.

{{AL|8|Milno-Plate| Flight (Light) Milno-Plate Variant}} MODERN/A
Nik:Might be A- or B+, I guess.

{{AL|10|Mk III Suit}} OUTDATED/A
Nik:Here's the thing. It is outdated, but it's hard to think of a replacement that could increase it's usefulness.

{{AL|10|Milno-Plate| Full (Heavy) Milno-Plate variant}} MODERN/B+
Nik:Might be A- depending on your outlook, I guess, but the decrease in flight capability is unfortunte.
syv:I think it's at least an A, since it basically grants immunity to small arms.

{{AL|~10|Protectorate Suit}} OBSOLETE/B-
Nik:I'd lump the Full Milnoplate and this one into a better human-sized "heavy armor" and call it a day.
syv:I dislike that idea.  It kills the item's personality.

{{AL|10|"Fancy" Shield}}OUTDATED/B
Nik:Seems useless at first glance, but Milno doesn't use useless items. Still, probably deserves an update with better materials and possibly reduced price.

{{AL|13|Man-Sized Avatar Cloak}} OUTDATED/B
Nik:As with all Milno-items, it's hard to call it useless. Still, its age shows itself, and then I'm not sure we even can produce these anymore. But we probably should, for it's basically "Mk III Flight Armor++".

{{AL|?|Fatman Suit}} OBSOLETE (UNAVAILABLE)/C

{{AL|?|High Guard Armor}} OBSOLETE (UNAVAILABLE)/??

{{AL|?|Walking Bastion}} OBSOLETE (UNAVAILABLE)/??

{{AL|6|Arbiter Coat}} OBSOLETE (UNAVAILABLE)/??

{{AL|?|Public Avenger Gear}} OBSOLETE (UNAVAILABLE)/??

{{AL|20|Industrial Suit}} OBSOLETE/C

{{AL|50+|Anomaly Suit}} RESTRICTED/??
Nik:This is probably mission equipment as well. And that's before we question whether any automanips are used in this one.

[NAV]

I mostly agree with your assessments.

I would call the gauss rifle a B though its still outdated.

The laser rifle and cutting laser could be made relevant and useful again if they used generators instead of batteries for the same price. There's still nothing better for slicing through things. Makes a very good secondary/backup/utility weapon when generator powered.
Of course it would be even better to make the FEL weapons cheaper.

The multifunction power gauntlet is misplaced into the entirely wrong section. Its not even a weapon. It would be a useful utility/versatility device if it wasn't so incredibly overpriced for the package it offers.

Why does the gungnir electrolaser use a tesla sabre. It could use a spark gap for so much cheaper. and why does it cost a token to duct tape them together. And why is it only compatible with a laser rifle it should be a kit to turn any laser into a lightning gun.

The Longcoat as a standalone armour is obviously bad. It might still have some niche use for layering over other armours.

I would add in "Milnoplate helmet" MODERN/A+
Its the cheapest best thing to protect you from permadeath.

[Egan_BW]

Hand laser still isn't quite Obsolete, it has infinite battery for a whole token less than the Red Hand.

[AoshimaMichio]

Hand laser still isn't quite Obsolete, it has infinite battery for a whole token less than the Red Hand.

Infinite generator yes, but it overheats in mere three seconds.

[Egan_BW]

Also the blaster isn't a glove. It can get knocked out of you hands, as demonstrated by Lordpunch in his VR duel.

[NAV]

The hand laser has trouble getting through a Mk1 suit. Its barely even worth calling a weapon.

[Radio Controlled]

The hand laser has trouble getting through a Mk1 suit. Its barely even worth calling a weapon.

One of the cool things about it though is that it is one of the few things in ER you can remake in real life by taping a laser pointer to a glove.

[Maegil]

The hand laser has trouble getting through a Mk1 suit. Its barely even worth calling a weapon.

Sounds more like a laser scalpel than a weapon... Since it's got its own generator, couldn't it also be used as a defibrillator/heart attack inducer against unarmoured persons?

[Nikitian]

Hey, I replied! And with some more Armory list analysis. (Might have messed up something, a lot of text to read through, so please excuse me in that case.)
As usual, public input on the discussed issues is highly requested.

Spoiler: Discussion, in chrological order (click to show/hide)

@assaultsuits They are in the Aux section. They are piloted, not worn.

@gauss rifle
Well, I based my opinion on them both being straight out of the Altered Wars. Honestly, especially since we are not going to take all those crates of them to the new universes, they really deserve an update. I'd even break my rule of not tinkering deathtubes to give one an overhaul - but would rather give my notes to someone else willing.

@Laser rifle/Cutting laser/FEL - Well, my solution would be to recreate a Spektr as a 3-token weapon (Laser rifle + generator + some slight additions), and in that role it would fit exactly with a generator-fed laser rifle. Remember, focusing aperture and all that stuff has been really cheap for blaster weapons, so I see no reason why it can't be here as well.
Cutting laser/Raduga is probably the same, but I can see some use in creating an intermediary laser weapon (say, 6-token one) that is fed off blueshards but still cuts in sweeps, not pulses. Kind of a "carbine cutting laser" - lighter, cheaper, probably not weaker (because of the scientific advancement and all that jazz).

@gungnir electrolaser Good spot! Yeah, since it can be created from a Spektr, I guess it can still be kept - or can it be adapted to work with blaster weapons? Anyway, needs a lot of rework and reconsideration, for a number of reasons that have been listed.

@longcoat I think it's just obsolete? I mean, it's quite outclassed by many newer creations, etc. How about we just created a new "cloth armor"/"cloak" item from scratch? Perhaps even Avatar fabric could be thinned down a little, or something.

@Milnoplate helmet
Good spot! Yeah, all things considered, I think it could be added as a separate item. Armory is going to be decluttered enough that we could affort it - and it would really help with survivability of newcomers.

@Handlaser What others said. Well, we might include it as a cheap laser scalpel in a new Emergency Kit/Advanced Kit, but as a weapon it is rubbish.

Spoiler: Uncon (click to show/hide)

{{AL|3,5,7,10, or 13|Human Brain}} RESTRICTED/??
Well, it's not that it should be restricted itself, rather that it goes with manips that are going to be restricted.

{{AL|1|Monoatomic Razor}} MODERN/A
Possibly B+. Well, it's hard to beat the utility of a 1-token weapon.

{{AL|1+|"Brisant" Hand Grenade}} MODERN/B
As the weapon, as the grenades. Good, solid. Maybe A, even.

{{AL|2|Electrostick}} MODERN/B-
C? I fear that most enemies might be insulated against such electricity. It has its uses, but compared to the monorazor it's a bit niche.

{{AL|2|Eighth Kiloton Charge}} MODERN/A
B+? Good, ol' football of death. Still very useful, in no small part thanks to its price.

{{AL|2-3|Aster-Ex}} MODERN/B
Alternatively, OUTDATED/B if we can reverse-engineer that orange jelly explosive.

{{AL|1|Smoke Bombs}} MODERN/B
Relatively niche, but at its price it can afford that.

{{AL|1|Basic Hand Grenades}} OBSOLETE/B
Almost the same as Brisant ones, but those have a few other varieties, have extra electronic bits (proximity safety, etc.) and can also be used as ammo with Brisant.

{{AL|1|'Sticky goop' Grenades}} MODERN/A
Good, very versatile, unique effect. Would probably roll in with other grenades, though.

{{AL|1|Electronade}} MODERN/B
Maybe A, no idea - haven't been tested in the field yet, I believe.

{{AL|2|EMP Grenade}} OUTDATED/B
Not Brisant-compatible, niche, but quite useful. Would enjoy a slight redesign for compatibility and modern-tech update, I think.

{{AL|3|Kinetic Amplifier}} MODERN (RESTRICTED?)/B
Former MODERN/A- (with the usefulness increasing in correlation the character progression, so always important and up-to-date), now slightly worsened with unpredictability. Is this one really restricted?

{{AL|3|Microwave Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED/A
Mass Murder Manipulator. What else to be said?

{{AL|3|Force Monosword}} MODERN/A
I might be biased, so it could be B+, I guess. Still, the latest word in melee warfare.

{{AL|3|Swiss Army Pimpknuckle}} MODERN/A-
Maybe B+. It's only "drawback" being that this is not a straight weapon, really. A long-awaited technician's best friend! But probably best moved to Aux section, as such (where, say, the Cutting Torch resides).

{{AL|4|5 Second Reset}}MODERN/A+
How much this costs, once again?..

{{AL|4|Matter Saver}} MODERN/A
All hail Space Magic 2.0!

{{AL|4|Monoatomic Machete}} MODERN/B
Generally slightly worse than the force-sword, it has its advantages and thus still useful, I guess.

{{AL|4|White-Hot Club}} MODERN/??
I have no idea how useful this thing is in melee combat.

{{AL|5|Ghost Blade}} MODERN/??

{{AL|5|Tesla Sabre}} RESTRICTED (UNAVAILABLE)/B+
Former A-. This could cut battlesuits!

{{AL|7|Crowd-wire Gloves}} ??/??
I don't remember this weapon. Was it added among the newest batch of items? If not, it is probably OUTDATED.

{{AL|7|Kiloton Charge}} MODERN (MISSION EQUIPMENT)/B
I have a feeling that all nukes from 5 tokens upwards should be a mission equipment. Maybe, if we could create a 4-token kiloton nuke, it could have personal uses, but otherwise I feel they are going to be procured only when the mission specifically requires them.

>{{AL|7?|Mass Manipulation Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED
We should add this already, even if it's restricted. Because it is almost certainly available (well, restrictedly available nowadays, but still), but is hidden for some reason.

{{AL|8|Magnetic Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|8|Stake Driver}}??/??
Don't remember this one either, but unless it has a kin-amp it's seriously underpowered for its cost. And if it has one, it's use has been decreased and might even be RESTRICTED now.

{{AL|10|10 Kiloton Charge}} MISSION EQUIPMENT/??

{{AL|10|Solid Light Matter Generator}} MODERN/??
Spaaace maaagic 2.0!

{{AL|12|Gravity Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|14|Vector Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED

>{{AL|10?|Neural Connector Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED
>{{AL|15?|Organochemistry Overrider Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED (OBSOLETE) (see in Exo)
>{{AL|15?|Organo-Tissue Dominator Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED
Because true wizards base their fleshwarping powers on Med, not on Cha.

{{AL|15|Megaton Charge}} MISSION EQUIPMENT
No, really. 15 tokens for a one-use bomb? For using which Steve might pat you on the shoulder, and throw a few more tokens your way? Mission equipment.

{{AL|16|Kinetic Shunt}} RESTRICTED(OUTDATED)
We should really rummage through the AM's files, find the upgraded Shunt, update it with a little bit of modern tech, and release instead of this one.

{{AL|20|Universal Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED

Spoiler: Exo (click to show/hide)

{{AL|2|Tentacle Graft}} MODERN/B
Possibly OUTDATED. I mean, come on, can't we think of a way to upgrade that tentacle without increasing its price?

{{AL|2|Empathic Gland}} MODERN/B
A+ for Exo/Med people. A dream come true for some, a piece of moderately useful equipment for others.

{{AL|2|Force Infuser}} MODERN/ ?? (A- or B+)
If it really works, it's cool. But it still needs more field testing.

{{AL|3|Microwave Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|3|Exotic Pimpknuckle}} MODERN/B
Or possibly A-, depending on how much pimpmetal is there. Useful, cheap, non-space-magic Exo weapon. What else to wish for?

{{AL|4|Haber's Implant}} MODERN/A- (B-)
Depends on whether you find the decreased resistance to the forces beyond worth the additional powers. Still, quite unique in what it does.

{{AL|4|Toxic Symbiote}} MODERN/??
I have my reservations about the usefulness of this thing, but we'll see.

{{AL|5|Elemental Infuser}} MODERN/??

{{AL|5|Extraphysical Cutting Aura}} MODERN/??

{{AL|5|Micro-Servitor Manipulation System "Sandbag"}} OUTDATED/B-
It... has its uses, but we really need to experiment on removing the limits of this item. Because with them, it might as well be D+ for what it's worth.

{{AL|5|Pimp Cane}} MODERN/ A-
Might be B+ instead. A stylish, versatile weapon that is not Origin-linked yet clearly defies quite a few laws of physics as we know them.

{{AL|6|Demigod Touch}} MODERN/??

{{AL|6|Universal Limb Collector}} MODERN/??
Seems interesting, but needs more data.

{{AL|7|Mass Manipulation Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

>{{AL|8?|Magnetic Field Manipulator}} RESTRICTED
Because Exo users also deserve the chance at playing Magneto.

{{AL|7|"Mindfuck" Gun}} MODERN/C+
I'm a little disappointed with this one, as while it has its uses (and might even be B+ in some cases), it has some very noticeable limits, and is quite expensive for what it does.

{{AL|8|Haebi Limb}} MODERN/??

{{AL|8|Id Manifester}} MODERN/??
Could be A+ to B-, depending on how well it works. We'll need some more field testing.

{{AL|8|Symbiotic Hive}} MODERN/B
There are some real limits to its use, but it has some perks.

{{AL|10|Neural Connector Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|10|Black Halo}} MODERN/B+
I'd rate is an A, but it has some serious limits, unfortunately.

{{AL|10|Electro Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|10|White Mask}} MODERN/A+

{{AL|12|Gravity Manipulator Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|15|Organochemistry Overrider Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED (OBSOLETE)
Funny enough, I think this is the only amp ever that might be obsolete - because of the Dominator one, of course. Unless this one has its specific uses (in which case it is strictly niche), it is unfortunately outclassed.

{{AL|15|Organo-Tissue Dominator Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|17|Vector Manipulator Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|20|Matter Converter Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

{{AL|20|Universal Psychokinetic Amplifier}} RESTRICTED

[Nunzillor]

The names of items in the Armory are not displayed on mobile devices.  I have no idea how to fix that...

Edit: if anyone has a moment, can I get their opinion on the Infinite Multitool?  How does it compare to just getting "assorted tools" from Fred, which are free?