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[Max™]

You can also add [NOFEAR] to a race after world-gen if you have a pre-existing world you are fond of that has them, they show up but ignore you.

I wonder if you could make bogeyman hearts give a syndrome with [NOFEAR] or something...

[Neonivek]

You can mod them out by removing them from your world-raw.
No need to ban them for all because I like them a lot (and I won't be the only person).

They need to be off by default. If you like them then you can mod them in can't you?

See it works both ways doesn't it?

But no, Boogeymen actually makes your game worse just by existing inherently. They destroy the flow of the game and make several aspects of playing pretty much impossible because of an ever present need to have a posse at all times.

Which is further made difficult by the fact that your posse are less willing to go through certain obstacles which is essential if you want to go anywhere that isn't in your immediate surroundings.

Hurt further by the fact that they are quite difficult and more then capable of dispatching you especially if you do not super optimize your character in order to defeat them. Heaven save you if you don't use the specific weapons made to kill Boogeymen.

Since what a lovely forced encounter that basically goes "Yeah I am immune to your weapon! You have to luck into killing me with it".

Sure the Giant Cave Spiders were the exact same way, but the game didn't sent one hunting after you just because you crossed a river.

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Remove Boogeymen, show support
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=124011.msg4442578#msg4442578

[SaD-82]

If that is your kind of argumentation than you could remove all obstacles of the game which are too difficult/boring/annoying for you.
You could even say: "Remove the game at all. There will be mods for Super Mario which will pretend to be some kind of DF."
If something bothers you (you, not all players around the globe) in a game then remove it.
Or find ways to counter it.
Bogeymen are a feature. A gameplay aspect. Such as roguelike per se. Would you suggest to remove permadeath?
(Off topic: Did you ever play Dark Souls? Okay, this wasn't off topic at all but a little hint.)

As of countering:
No, you don't need to have a group of people around you.
Sleep in lairs, buildings, at the coast or in mountains.
If your adventurer gains exp he will have less trouble with defeating bogeymen (and no, you dont need any kind of "superweapon" - a copper slicing knife will do the trick too). Kill the group assaulting you (the max number of bogeymen I had was 6) and the rest of the night you won't be bothered.
Run, if your agility is high enough.
Hell, you even won't get ambushed every night.
There are many ways in dealing with them.
If it peskers you, turn them of.
But don't try to tell someone that a feature which you can counter should be removed if you are the one who has trouble with it.
Learning by doing.
And more important:
How does the mantra go with DF? It involves words like "loosing" and "fun"...

[Neonivek]

If that is your kind of argumentation than you could remove all obstacles of the game which are too difficult/boring/annoying for you.

Difficult isn't a problem.

Boring and needlessly annoying is certainly a problem.

Everything else you said SAD is completely invalid anyhow...

Thanks a lot SaD...

Why don't you just agree with me instead of just giving a power point presentation about why EXACTLY they need to be removed.

[Max™]

Because you can set them to 0 in your world-gen profiles and never worry about it?

I don't demand that Toady switch the default keybinds to the ones I use, though I think they work better than the defaults did. I don't demand people remove no_eat/drink from gobs along with other methods to control populations just because I find it more fun being able to roam freely through a dark fortress without fighting the FPS and gobs.

I don't even demand people put the beards back on their female dorfs, it's easy enough for me to do.

I agree that after a while bogeymen go from being legitimately terrifying to a hassle or at best annoyance, but there are so many ways to deal with this, I don't see how it is worth trying to demand they be removed.

I find night trolls far more annoying, not for the fights themselves, but because I occasionally end up with world gens that seem to encourage them to take over and you get the initially neat but rapidly boring experience of worlds with massive clusters of troll lairs. They aren't even useful for fame half the time because you run the risk of someone knowing said troll from before they were turned and getting pissed at you!

Now, if you could do something and turn the troll victims back to normal, or in some way give closure to those who lost someone to a troll without them spitting at you and calling you a murderer, that would be cool, but right now I just turn them off and enjoy the worlds without them.

[Neonivek]

but there are so many ways to deal with this

I never understood why this is an argument.

My house could lack a foundation, crumble and collapse, and instead of hiring a contractor I can rebuild it myself.

Yet why would that be an argument that houses shouldn't be built without a foundation?

---

No matter what you say it just boils down to this

The game would be more fun without boogeymen.

They do not improve the gameplay, they do not supply fun to the game, and while in concept they are cool in practice they are a detriment. The game runs smoother, is more interesting, and offers more variety in its gameplay when they are not in the game.

It is my firm believe that if they were turned off by default, almost no one would ever turn them on again.

While if you turned, say, vampires or necromancers off by default... People would almost always turn them back on.

What do Vampires and Necromancers have that Boogeymen lack?

And yes I almost always keep Boogeymen off... because they offer nothing to the gameplay other then a one time shock value.

You said it yourself they are "at best" an annoyance.

---

Better yet they just aren't all that good anyhow. Instead of existing in the world they just intersect it.

You can go near a Goblin fortress and bump into raiding parties, bandits, and murderers in the forest. You can go into a monstrous jungle and come face to face with creatures. You kill them and the game adjusts to their absence. That Monster no longer is terrorizing that village and that Goblin no longer has the claim to the throne.

Boogeymen? You were out at night alone... Did you win? So what... Did you lose? So what.

[Max™]

I only leave necros on because they can provide a convenient last vestige of embarkable society in a world where dorfs otherwise died out, I had a lot of fun playing with the more dangerous vampire types from things like the dark ages mod until I discovered the wanderer's friend and then learned how to make staged and progressive power-up items using the hearts of semi/megabeasts, going far enough that I was able to have it change my displayed job title, Giant Slayer, Dragon Slayer, Roc Slayer, Hydra Slayer, and finally Megabeast Slayer after you combine the power-up items from all the others into an ultimate buff!

I was able to have an amazingly epic battle where I tried to keep a trancing dorf I bumped into alive while an army of hundreds of zombie goblins attacked us, before allowing the wounded survivors enough breathing room to escape, move onwards to the last fortress with kidnapped children, return them home to much acclaim and such, then in an effort to change the age I headed for a cluster of titan shrines where I was accidentally husked after stepping in some dust... due to the silly speed buffs from the megabeast heart balms I didn't actually slow down visibly, though I did learn that not only do the various other buffs stack, so does the strength buff from being husked... which is just ridiculous at this point, though sadly it means I can't enter a town without everyone flipping out about me being an undead horror.

I left regional interactions on knowing this might happen, should they be removed? I'm already strong enough that the husk boost is negligible really, but the loss of normal interaction really hurts, is that Toady's fault or mine?

More to the point, do you leave all of the world-gen settings untouched? Why? They're just a middle of the road type setting intended to produce a bunch of variety by default, is the bogeyman parameter the only one you change?

[Neonivek]

Here is something max

Why do you care to argue with me if you believe customizing the game is not a big deal?

I only argue that they are off by default, not that they should be removed in entirety.

is the bogeyman parameter the only one you change?

Actually? Yes... Sometimes I try to squeeze in a few more megabeasts (because they depopulate badly) but yeah they are the only thing I remove.

I used to get rid of werewolves but back then they were broken and left lairs everywhere making travel a total slog... But they are fixed now.

[Max™]

Seems like your problem is that you're experiencing one type of world-gen and ignoring the UNBELIEVABLY VAST space of possible worlds you can produce.

What is the difference between setting bogeymen to 0 and setting elevation variance to 3200x3200 like I prefer?

Why should the defaults be changed when they're both easy and actually encouraged to be played with?

Continue playing
Start playing
Create a world
Design new world with advanced parameters

You don't have to hack into the raws to do this, just walk through a couple of menus and it's saved. Do you have some sort of sense that the game must be played exactly as our lord Toady set it down for us from on-high, because I'm pretty sure he never said or suggested anything of the like, I think he's quite glad that the community has embraced the options and ability to tweak and re-imagine things, that's one of the main reasons to move things into the raws as I recall... but this isn't even a raw tweak, it's an exposed option in the game itself, or one you can access with the init world_gen.txt file.

The implication there is that you're supposed to play with those settings, if you find something fun, great, if you find something that breaks, feel free to let Toady know if you can't find help fixing it or fix it yourself, but as long as you generate worlds with bogeymen: > 0 you're choosing to do so.

If you never played before today and were frustrated about this I'd be far more sympathetic, but the crusade "REMOVE THE BOGEYMEN RAWR" is silly... just disable them man, make a mod without them, find one like that, you're missing so much of the game to focus on one issue... how did Bruce Lee put it?

"It is like a finger pointing the way towards the moon. Do not focus on the finger or you will miss out on all that heavenly beauty."


Worth noting I used to have a huge rage problem, smashed controllers, destroyed keyboards, broken knuckles, it was actually straining my relationship and incredibly unfair of me to stress her out over my playing a damn game...

Then I discovered df, and you know why your argument seems so weird to me?

Despite all the crazy stupid nonsense ways I've had things screw me over, I have never gotten mad at this game, because there is always more to see and do, more ways to screw up, more ways to succeed, and it's just amusing even when it does go bad.

You're talking to a former rage-case that was cured by the game you're ranting about: that might be a sign you should reconsider your argument.

[Neonivek]

Once again.

If it is so easy Max, why not have it set off by default?

What is the issue?

[Max™]

Should vamps/demons/megabeasts/trolls/etc be set to 0?

[Uzu Bash]

"I want it my way!"
"You can have it your way. Here's how."
"No, that's not my way! My way is that everyone agrees with me!"

[Neonivek]

Should vamps/demons/megabeasts/trolls/etc be set to 0?

No they contribute to the game positively.

Still answer my question. stop side stepping.

"I want it my way!"
"You can have it your way. Here's how."
"No, that's not my way! My way is that everyone agrees with me!"

Well no that isn't accurate at all.

No more then it is accurate for me to say that this entire argument is just a bunch a irrational fanboys defending dwarf fortresses bad choices because otherwise they might have to admit that the thing they love so much actually has a flaw.

[Adragis]

My opinion on the entire thing is that it'd be better off as less common than off entirely. ATM you will almost always be gotten by bogeymen, whereas I think perhaps it could be, say, 50/40%? I mean, in real life the wolves might get you, but 100% bogeymen all the time is a bit weird.

Basically, perhaps a 'prevalence' scale rather than on/off. I'd like them to be a chance encounter rather than a constant, looming threat.

[Max™]

I never said the game didn't have flaws, and I gave you tons of reasons why your argument is nonsensical, so stop side-stepping them to jump up and down like my little sisters do when I disagree with them, even they would recognize when they were being ridiculous.