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Author Topic: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2) Preparing the reboot...  (Read 34184 times)

Urist McKiwi

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #225 on: August 14, 2015, 05:24:11 pm »

We could dam the river and make an aqueduct over it (and the ravine) to carry the magma pipe/dike. Might be a bit evil to framerate though.

Edit: Alternatively, use magma to block the rivers entirely with cast obsidian, then replace it with a magma river to make any elves downstream nice and cosy.
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Taupe

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #226 on: August 14, 2015, 06:14:19 pm »

my plan was to lower ghe river by two levels by digging undermeath and causing a few caveins over it at the start. not sure how that would fuck up the turbines tho..

Basically before the fort the riberbtakes a plungem The lava goes over it. On the other side, ali just build a sort of trench along the ledge over the canyon.

While im doing this i may as well add a dam to the river.drop altho i dont jnow how to do this at all.

EDIT: So Zuglarkun, if I get this right, the objectives of PLAN B are to:
1- reveal the map to discover the map's edge
2-channel between magma pools to connect all the magma sea, allowing our own section of the pool to refill over time.

Correct?

EDIT2:
Here's a very brief and colorful summary of my plans for the moat.

Do note that by definition the hospital will be right underneath the suspended magma moat structure. By addidng a simple floodgate or magma-safe hatch, we can actually make a much, MUCH better self-cleaning system.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 07:47:18 pm by Taupe »
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Zuglarkun

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #227 on: August 14, 2015, 10:55:56 pm »

EDIT: So Zuglarkun, if I get this right, the objectives of PLAN B are to:
1- reveal the map to discover the map's edge
2-channel between magma pools to connect all the magma sea, allowing our own section of the pool to refill over time.

Correct?

Exactly. Though you won't need to use DFhack or any third party tools to reveal the map. The channeling you do for PLAN B will be sufficient to reveal enough of the magma sea so that you can plan where to channel next. By my count, you only need to connect 2 magma pools, the one at PLAN B and the next one revealed after channeling PLAN B. (You can't see the edge of the magma sea even then, but it is connected. You can reveal more of the magma sea by channeling a little further to make sure like I did, but the photos I posted earlier should confirm.)

You might want to place a door at the entryway before digging to connect the magma pools, that way you can forbid it once the miners are in and save yourself some time from all the cancellation spam you are going to get. (The forbidden door keeps them from accepting other jobs, so they'll continue to dig instead of going up to the fort for some drink or something) As long as you dig on the same z-level as the designations for PLAN B and only channel down where you need to, you should be !!FUN!! free.

Here's a very brief and colorful summary of my plans for the moat.

Do note that by definition the hospital will be right underneath the suspended magma moat structure. By adding a simple floodgate or magma-safe hatch, we can actually make a much, MUCH better self-cleaning system.

I had pored over the map quite a bit over my turn plus these few weeks and had pretty much come to the same conclusion as you have.

Only thing I would do differently is instead of using controlled cave-ins, I would build a pipeline over the point of the river and obsidianize the part you want to dam (I'm not that great with cave-ins, so I don't quite trust I'll do it right). Leaving some room, maybe around 3x3 to build a raising bridge to dam the river before the point where you would channel down to divert the flow of the river. Then once everything else is set in place, you can just channel away the obsidian plug and release the bridge to allow the river to flow again. Yeah, safer IMO but more tedious. Also, bonus for being able to retrieve all the forbidden crap lying on the lower reaches of the river at your leisure (assuming the water there flows off the map), as well as recovering some framerate by damming the river at your leisure. Just go with what you are comfortable with.

Although, the variation in z-levels along the top part of the fort pretty much means you'll need to build a wall to level that part of the magma moat with the rest. I think you can dig up to a 2-3 z-level deep ditch (The deepest I would go with 3, so that the bottom is the same level with the farms, and it will be above the sand collection area and just below the hospital)

1=Preparing all the required pieces. that means mining, smelting, and forging of required gears and parts. Obviously everything should be magma-safe, and some magma-safe blocks and rocks should be made too.

The glass making/ sand collecting is already underway. I made useful shortcuts (H) to pinpoint where certain production areas are. There are around 50+ of each part (glass blocks, glass tubes, glass corkscrews) by my count, which should keep pump construction going without disruptions for quite awhile. The tough parts are already done, you just have to make sure that the parts used when constructing are all glass (magma safe), and to not build more than 1 or 2 at any one time (There are plenty of mechanics, building designers, and masons to make sure things flow smoothly, but if you finish building the top pump before the bottom one connecting to the rest of the stack is finished, you risk having the top ones collapse since they are unsupported by a base. Though there is a leeway of a few in-game days before this happens.) FUCK, I CAN NEVER ADEQUATELY EXPLAIN THE NUANCES OF MECHANICS.

Just to note, there's a stockpile for sandbags only on the z-level just below the forges (furniture stockpile 79), and the sand collection area is already in the shortcuts (Shift+F3).

After going back to read the original thread, I realized far too late that those rectangle clearings in the caverns were for a spiral pimpstack design that has far more output than the current one I have now. Derped on that one. On the bright side, it is still serviceable and should require far less power to automate.

If anything is unclear, just let me know.

EDIT: I just discovered that there are 2 breaches (open spaces) just above the top level of the magma pump stack, where the southern fort is. You might want to floor them over ASAP.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 11:35:24 pm by Zuglarkun »
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Triaxx2

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #228 on: August 15, 2015, 07:39:56 am »

Are we still collecting sand with the basic glass furnaces? Or using the Magma ones.
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Taupe

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #229 on: August 15, 2015, 08:35:05 pm »

Some planning for the turn. My estimates are sometimes off, but I usually stick to them as much as I can.

I've recovered the save friday, and my initial plan was to simply goof around and roll with it. However, as the new thread manager of this thing I realised it was sort of expected of me to actually push forward our main goals, aka magma awesomeness and engineering. Of which I know nothing. A desire to not fuck something up badly lead me to pause (or rather, not unpause) and brainstorm shit out. Add a recent turn in Drunkfort and the associated hangover, and not much was accomplished so far. I'm surprisingly busy with work for the following days, and as such the first main play session (and screenshot flood) will probably happen tuesday, and the second one thursday. I'm aiming friday evening for a final report and wrap-up, unless something tragic happens, like the cat exploding or the FPS dropping into the earth's core after I mess with the river.

In the meantime, I'm trying to catch up on the basics of engineering, pumps and turbines during my breaks. My latest project involved accidentally defeating half of hell's legions while trying to achieve something absolutely opposed to that. So obviously, I need to get up to date with some physics notions.  Some ideas and options I've added to make sure we don't die or lose half the fort during the operations, as well as some quality of life improvement. Once we fill a giant moat with magma and redirect a river, there's a sort of commitment, so any contingencies should be devised now. Oh, and by the way thanks a lot for the details and precisions Zuglarkun.

The new river will need:
1-An access to the work area, doubling as an emergency exit, should someone fall into the river.
2-A grate system, or something similar, meant to release water into the chasm, but keep living things and items inside the riverbed. The grate system should be toggleable on/off, just in case we want something NOT to stop there.
3-An alternate riverbed. Either because someone needs to be fished out, or because we want to grab items stuck there, or simply for maintenance and upgrades, we need a second riverbed that's closed with bridges. Activating a lever would shut the normal path and open the alternate one. Appart from dealing with dumb dwarves and trolls, this will be mainly used if we want to attach a dam system to either side.
4-The alternate riverbed will be going straight under the turbine hall. That way (i think) we'll be able to expand the turbine downwards so they are powered by the alternate riverbed. The alternate riverbed should thus be very close to the surface, to accomodate the turbine. We could thus have a normal riverbed letting water flow freely, but a pull of a lever would redirect the water underneath the turbine hall, providing power that can be shut down easily, to save fps.
5-All levers must be clearly labelled, and have a backup. I plan a small lever building on the surface, and another one deeper underground  so that anything rampaging one section is unlikely to break both sets of levers, should the worst case scenario happen. We won't be able to repair anything if the damage spreads to the control devices. Maybe wall off the backup levers until they are needed?
6-Full magma-safe components. I'm not saying we'll fill the area with magma, but there'll be vast quantities of it sleeping above these tunnels, and sometimes shit happens. Better safe than burning. I've had many situations were I thought about making something magma safe, then told myself ''nah magma isnt supposed to come here'', only to very much regret that later on.

The moat section over the canyon:
1-Should be made of full blocks, not floors, so it is not vulnerable to something heavy falling inside.
2-Should be two blocks high to avoid ANY complications, see point 1
3-Construction will start with a set of temporary floor tiles, covering the future bottom of the moat. This will provide a relatively safwe way for workers to build shit without dying.
4-Section by section, floor tiles are removed, and replaced by a wall. Expand until the whole bottom layer is created.
5-workers can now walk on the bottom section, and add walls on top of it to create the second layer, starting outward to avoid unreachable area.
6-The sides of the moat can be completed using temporary ramps.
7-Voila, the moat is now ready to host magma, and cannot be broken by falling objects.

Order of operations:
1-Digging the riverbed, smiths prepare the components.
2-Miners move to the moat, while engineers begin wiring the riverbed
3-Riverbed redirected, builders can begin working on the suspended moat. Miners enable Plan B
4-Not die in the process?
Bonus step: make every useless dwarf a miner, create lots of spare picks.

Writing this all here is a good way for me to not forget something crucial. I still have some things to work out until tuesday, namely how the bridge system will work to redirect the river. Which brings up a very important question:

QUESTION:
-Can a bridge be raised if there is liquid on it (aka, can a submerged bridge be raised to seal the waterflow?
« Last Edit: August 15, 2015, 08:48:09 pm by Taupe »
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Triaxx2

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #230 on: August 15, 2015, 09:54:02 pm »

As far as I am aware, a raising bridge shouldn't care about water. Though I've always used floodgate walls in addition to bridges.

Are you intending to use a punch to divert the river to the new lower bed?
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Zuglarkun

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #231 on: August 16, 2015, 12:37:02 am »

Are we still collecting sand with the basic glass furnaces? Or using the Magma ones.

As far as I'm aware, the basic glass furnaces are doing the sand collection. I don't quite remember but I think I've built a few more basic glass furnaces next to the clearing of sand to be used solely for sand collection (there are now 4 with sand collection on repeat). The magma glass furnaces (of which there are 5) are solely used for making the glass components.

QUESTION:
-Can a bridge be raised if there is liquid on it (aka, can a submerged bridge be raised to seal the waterflow?

I can confirm that a submerged bridge can be raised to seal the flow of liquids even with magma or water on it. Well, you'll need to make sure that the ones submerged in magma are made of magma-safe materials (including the mechanisms) or they would deconstruct. (In fact, you can observe this being put into practice with our magma cistern, lever controls are inside the southern outpost) I use this method all the time because of paranoia over building destroyers entering my fort from the aqueducts.


As for the other stuff regarding the riverbed, do pay attention when constructing the moat section over the canyon - to wall off a 1x1 section that maintains direct access to the river bed below for the well above the hospital. You could even build a separate cistern at the bottom level of the riverbed just so we could have water from the well even when the river is dried up for maintenance or whatever. But its not a major concern since you can designate another drinking zone over the part of the river that is dammed off.

Similarly, another pathway to the southern outpost will need to be devised, since the magma moat will likely cut through the existing pathway now. The mill stones and mechanisms powering the current hospital cleaning system will also be deactivated once you divert the river flow.


See if this design works out for your plans.

As for the grate system, the only feasible way I can think of is to build grates after the dam, or one at the base of the waterfall, since submerged fortifications and bars don't really block items and living things. Maybe some kind of out-hang at the base of the waterfall, that is around 4-5 tiles wide, with a pathway that leads back to the surface (outside the fort). That way, anything that washes down will get caught there. Seal the pathway with raising bridges if need be. Still vulnerable to building destroyers though should one get washed down there somehow, but better than grates on the surface which will be exposed to any building destroyer that wanders about on the surface.

« Last Edit: August 16, 2015, 10:28:50 am by Zuglarkun »
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Taupe

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #232 on: August 18, 2015, 01:00:30 pm »

Heir to the mess --Prelude

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Atis was heading to the daily combat training when a page came to her.

''Your highness'', he said, ''your royal father summons you.
-Is that so, father? Atis yelled through the paper-thin block floors separating their rooms
-Hum, yes dear. Please come to my office at once!

She did. Their bedrooms were the mopst luxurious of this place, and still they were below what a peasant in the capital could claim for himself.

''You don't need to use a messenger, father. This place is a shithole. I live 6 feet away from you.
-Hum, yes, I see. There is something important I must tell you.
-Well then father, speak softly, for our very enemy the lord of Cactusson lives on the floor below
-Good morning your graces! the manipulative voice of Deus Asmoth said through the flooring.


She had the conversation moved to the rooftop. Prince Tholthig was there, quietly observing the horizon. ''Taupina will be back soon'' he repeated, as always. He had been spending most of his time since the death of the sixth princess here, waiting for his sister to return. She never would, having been killed by goblin skirmishers a few years prior.  And that was the problem. Two of her sisters had been assassinated in strange ways within a month of Deus Amosth becoming the Lord of Cactusson. Their royal party had arrived to investigate, but they had been cut off by the goblin wars erupting at the same moment. Now they were stuck in this desertic hellhole, and her father seemed more concerned with fishing and playing the drum than he was of bringing justice. Things would change soon, she thought. Atis had joined the troops shortly after her arrival, training as a soldier. Battle expertise would be required, once they'd decide to remove the men loyakl to Deus Asmoth, and bring him in chains. she hoped her father was ready to discuss their purpose here. she was mistaken.

''my daughter, it seems that nobody is claiming the post of Overseer after zuglarkun stepped down. It's strange, how many potential overseers just stop responding or vanish mysteriously when...
-It isn't strange father, he's behind it.
-tss, as i said, we need someone to rule the place. Your mother insists that we finish a special project. A lava dyke, and a system to self-destruct the fortress.
-Whaaaa
-Yes dear, just like in the legends. They say that long ago, when a mighty fort fell to enemies and its own failed designs, the surviving dwarves rigged the fortress and made it explode. Then a golden crown fell from the skyies, into the hands of the first king, and thus the rest is history.
-Father, the world is 107 years old. I'm pretty sure mom and you are the first of your king, none of this happened.
-Maybe, maybe not. Your mother wants to repeat the leghends of old and turn this place into a self-destructing fortress of lava and engineering.
-That's dumb.
-You can't argue with history!
-FATHER NONE OF THIS HAPPENED.
-well, your mom wants a lava moat and pumps and magma and shizzle and she will have it, regardless. She'll be coming over soon, I,m told, to make this place the new capital.
-What why what, why would this ever...
-Oh the kind Lord of Cactusson invited her, and the rest of the royal family! Isn't he great!
-father you do realise this is just a bluff to get everyone together and murder the whole succession line right.
-Is it tho?
-Yes.
-Well how are we gona prove this true if we don't build the lava moat first, huh?
-I can't even...
-Well good luck with that honey, I'm gone fishing.

...

Her father had always been a dimwit, and her mother unwise. Still, what mother wanted, she usually got. As the royal heir, it was her duty to secure her family's ambitions, no matter how retarded they were. She too a quick look at the fortress and the blueprints from previous years. most of the fort was aboveground, with poor housing and a detrimental heat. The initial plans were laid out by Captain Erhmagher, but he died, taking the secrets of his designs with him. Same for the guy after him. Many ideas, designations and half-dug areas littered the undergound, their dead opwner silent as to their intended purpose. She certainly wasn,t touching any of the mechanical stuff for now, being a former mason. What she could do, however, was prepare the moat with blocks and a sound structure, and divert that stupid river out of the way.

This would be a long year.

Taupe

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #233 on: August 18, 2015, 01:26:56 pm »

Heir to the mess -- Spring


Princess Atis has a strange dream. As if a divine presence is warning her of incoming events. She dreams that she designates her masterplan, prepare the riverbed. Then goblins attack, and the miners ignore the alert and burrows. The soldiers rush outside, to save them. Something goes wrong. The riverbed is filling with water on many places. Someone fell into the river during the battle, punching through the sand and opening a hole. the construction project fills up with water. People are drowning. MDFication is caugh underground, unable to reach the staircases. Instead he punches a way trough the rock into the waterfall. he falls down. water fills the area, and crashes the game.

Atis is back in her bedroom, on the first day of spring. ''I have a feeling goblins are underway'', she says. ''Prepare the troops, and cancel all our current projects.''

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
She knows that nothing good will come out of moving the river the way she intended. there are too many pockets of water, too many sandy patches. She'll focus on digging the moat, and brainstorm on the river over the next year. The first step will be to move the passageway to the Southern Outpost further down. Right now, it is just under the surface, and digging the moat would expose it. A few staircases, a new tunnel and a bunch of block walls should sort that out.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Inside, the workers are upgrading the passageway. Right above, the goblins are getting slaughtered. Children run amidst the battlefield, oblivious to the danger. Why they have 71 of the little bugger, the princess will never know. She herself never married, and the chaos of this place certainly doesn't drive her to courtship for the moment.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
With the goblins dispatched, the moat assembly can begin. Miners will have to channel an area around the fort that is six units large (block magmax4 block), while everyone else should be busy removing the floor blocks that were placed there. they served their purpose, but now they'll be replaced with something cooler. A magma trench.

Atis ponders what the project involves, and realize something... the turbine hall section is way too close to the surface. Even if they did manage to dig there safely without hitting something dumb, the river would still not be able to go underneat the moat. That she noticed by removing the area around the southern outpost tunnel. What poor insight. this leaves her with two choices.

A-- Don't move the river, keep the turbine hall intact. great in theory, but they need a magma moat

B-- Move the river toward the southern canyon, which only requires some channeling and a bunch of trees cut. Adding a few floorgates along the way will allow future overseers to redirect the river underground, underneat the moat, and closer to the turbine hall. She'll do it herself if she has time.

Option b sounds better, so the woodcutters are dispatched to the southern area of the region, to carve a working area.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
While browsing the nothern section of the wall, Atis is happy to see that the ground there is lower, and won't require as much work. sadly, it seems people don,t love GnottQT much, because his office is outside, at the mercy of animals and sieges. Said office is also filled with sand and insects, made of wood furniture of poor quality, and the roof is supported by exactly one corner wall. Obviously Deus Asmoth was trying to have the poor fellow killed, to replace GnottQT with Notquitethere, the manager's lookalike, and a man loyal to the Lord of Cactusson.

Obviously this area will be deconstructed.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Feeding the people remains important, and the elves have become valuable trade partners. Zuglarkun also left a note regarding gypsum powder. excelent. It's too bad that most if not all of their trade goods are made of grown wooden toys and crafts. this suggest that previous encounters with elven merchants were not kind. That just won't help matters.

The traders were still waiting. days were passing slowly, with little progress made. At this rate, it would take a year to finish the moat, no less. To worsen things, Mestthos, her father's cousin, had created a precious diorite crown, and named it the triangular bars. Everyone was now partying to celebrate. That's when an elven diplomat came to her, asking that they restrain from cutting trees. This was a bad timing, and Atis told him to stick it up his ass, for they were not slowing down her projects any longer. She dropped a bin of blood-soaked grown-wood toys at his feet, saying they were welcome to take arms if that was such a fucking problem.

The princess felt confident with her declaration. She may like the Lord of Cactusson none, but the man knew how to raise an army, and this outpost had 5 squads of soldiers ready for war, most of them full.

Looking at the surrounding construction area, Atis soon realized that miners were done with their job quickly, and then just waited after the builders and woodcutters, who worked much slower. To keep them occupied, she browsed through the paperwork left by the previous overseer, and handed a scroll over to the head miner.

''Execute Plan B'' she instructed him, and the miners rushed toward the magma forges.

*a month passes*

''I meant now'' she add.

As the miners return from not working on project ''Plan B'', they report that the forges have officially ran out of steel. Which is sad because the Lord of Cactusson had order 20 of every piece of steel armor possible. instead he got... 3 helms. He isnt too happy. Meanwhile reports of hyena attacks reach the fortress. The soldiers are dispatched, but for now the civilians dare not venture outside...

As work resumes, the area above the southern outpost tunnel is channeled by mistake, without first securing the area above. Zefon the planter plummets two levels below into the Turbine hall refuse tunnel. GnottQT the manager sort of suffers from a mid-case of the exploding leg. Progress is halted once more to avoid further cave-ins.

Bridges are slowly deconstructed so that a full channel can take place. They'll need to be rebuilt, anyway, to cross the full lenght of the moat. The old blocks have been mostly removed, and miners are digging the side of the trench, while builders replace the sand by granite blocks, as to create the sides of the upper moat level. slowly, but surely, but mostly slowly, progress is made.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 05:11:29 pm by Taupe »
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Gwolfski

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #234 on: August 18, 2015, 03:16:25 pm »

NOOO! find a way to fix it! maybe its aquifers?
 :'(
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Taupe

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #235 on: August 18, 2015, 04:01:24 pm »

NOOO! find a way to fix it! maybe its aquifers?
 :'(
Hardly matters, since the save crashed. Things are moving atrociously slow, with the fps being unknown thanks to using a vanilla install without packs. Still, took me about 4 hours so far, and we aren't done with the first month. Somehow I can't even take more than one screenshot without rebooting the game. Something must be done. I'm almost tempted to start running DFhack and see if the scripts and fixes could help improve the situation. That would go against the vanilla-feel of this fortress, tho. State your opinion, folks.

I wrote this down, went to take a piss, took a glass of wine and started a batch of laundry. a day passed ingame. FML.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2015, 04:04:32 pm by Taupe »
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Gwolfski

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #236 on: August 18, 2015, 05:09:20 pm »

you can edit init.txt or dinit.txt and there is an options SHOW_FPS, set it to TRUE
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Taupe

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #237 on: August 18, 2015, 05:38:26 pm »

you can edit init.txt or dinit.txt and there is an options SHOW_FPS, set it to TRUE
Hum, thanks. Altho, the game crashed again mid late-spring, as I tried to save, and I'm back to the 37th day. I'm done for today. Consider most of the previous report to be invalid.

Triaxx2

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #238 on: August 18, 2015, 06:08:34 pm »

They didn't believe me.

They thought I was mad.

Now they see. Now they SEE!

*jetpacks away*

Yeah, there's some seriously strange things that happen with the save.
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crazyabe

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Re: Murderflood: resurrection (Ardentdikes IIIv2)
« Reply #239 on: August 18, 2015, 06:18:31 pm »

Ptw
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