Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Truean]

I will simply remember it as a tone-setter for the next conversation I have with a member of your particular minority group.

Excuse you? So is that your real motive?    You have a disagreement with one member of a minority so you're going to treat the rest bad? If I had a disagreement with a black man and said "I'm going to remember this the next time I talk to a black person!"....  You do realize how terrible that looks right?

I do not want to think you're looking for a reason to justify your opposition while pretending it doesn't exist. Even threatening to outright saying you'll  treat other transgender people poorly because I wouldn't bow down and pander to willful blindness to the repeated proof of your argument's incorrectness, and demands that I have to not make other people "uncomfortable." I bolded text because you were blatantly ignoring things including blatantly visible large banner pictures.... My god, you deny the problem has anything to do with transgenders, look at the thread title. Look at the things we've cited, the proposed laws, the policies, the everything.... You're in a thread that has transgender in the name saying it has nothing to do with transgender....

I'm not angry, you are and even if you mix up the source it's good to know you recognize the emotion involved.  Once again, agree to disagree already. 2nd or 3rd time I've said it and it should've never gotten to this point. How many times do you have to be told to agree to disagree?

Tell you what, after a day or so I'll remove that quote link thing if you wanna delete your post, or at least that horrible looking part (this is an olive branch for your benefit). Speaking of why you shouldn't quote people.... One mistake could be taken "out of context." I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on what appears to be a post in very bad form and force myself to think you didn't mean it that way. Benefit. Of. The. Doubt.

You get a redo. Let's not do this. There's absolutely nothing to be gained by this. The world's a mean enough place without anything else adding to it. I've fought a LOT in my life, and let me tell you, it isn't worth it. 

[Bauglir]

Now, Mr. Bucket, I think you're being pretty unfair - the behavior you treat everybody equally with is "Respect their quoting preferences", not "Quote at will". It's like you've got something against allowing context into your rules for behavior. I mean, next thing you know you'll be saying that gay people have the same access to marriage as anybody else because they can marry people of the opposite sex - when obviously the right that's at stake is marrying people they love. Obviously you can't know everybody's preferences about everything, and equally obviously some preferences will be too annoying for you to keep up with, but when it's thoroughly announced, takes no more than a thought, and is easily remedied when you make a mistake, it hardly seems worth picking a fight over. I mean, you don't take issue with wearing clothes, right? That's a good deal more demanding.

[Orange Wizard]

I really wish she's make the "Please don't quote me" a hyperlink to one of the times she's explained it.  I'm a bit sore over getting ganged up on after I complied and also asked why.  It's a bit of a derail magnet, and making the demand without offering any explanation doesn't look so good.

I get the feeling this would solve a lot of problems.

Also, Truean, you need to stop assuming everyone's out to hurt you.

[4maskwolf]

Lord Bucket:

Now, Mr. Bucket, I think you're being pretty unfair - the behavior you treat everybody equally with is "Respect their quoting preferences", not "Quote at will". It's like you've got something against allowing context into your rules for behavior.

This.  If you're saying that everyone should be treated the exact same I have a problem with it, LB, because people are very, very different from each other, and by refusing to acknowledge differences you not only risk offending the person but refuse to acknowledge part of who they are.

You seem to have a little "special treatment clause" that means that if someone asks you to do something most other people don't you feel entitled, and indeed from looking at your post you seem to feel morally obligated, to refuse.  Which is absolutely ridiculous.  Would you treat someone with depression the same as someone without it?  Someone with autism the same way as someone without it?  People are different, LB, and there is no one-size-fits-all solution.  Rather than refuse on the grounds of "oh, it's special treatment", perhaps you should respect someone's rather reasonable request that you not quote what they say.  Yes, it's mildly inconvenient, but life is full of small inconveniences.

[Malt_Hitman]

Now, Mr. Bucket, I think you're being pretty unfair - the behavior you treat everybody equally with is "Respect their quoting preferences", not "Quote at will". It's like you've got something against allowing context into your rules for behavior.

Isn’t the entire argument about not quoting Truean all about Truean maintaining copyright over what Truean has typed?  Truean wants to be the only one to be able to reproduce Truean’s work and disallow anyone else from reproducing it in any post that they make controlling context of the discussion.  If Truean goes back and edits a post that someone has blank responded to it allows Truean the ability to control the discussion and direct the narrative.

Also, LordBucket is correct that the Truean metaphor is a good one for this discussion.  Truean is making a request here but one that no one should be forced into acquiescing to.  The forums could be altered to conform to Truean’s requests.  Code could be written to add some type of No Quoting option in the forum profile which would physically prevent others from quoting users, including linking to their posts, and then Truean wouldn’t have to make such requests.  Others wouldn’t having to go around and continually point out that Truean commands requests that Truean not be quoted until the “offending” poster is forced to meet Truean’s demands not to be quoted.  The entire system for quoting others could also be removed but that would inconvenience those running the forums to cater to a very small subset of posters who demand not to be quoted.

[Orange Wizard]

"Very small subset" meaning "one in forty-three thousand". No, it isn't necessary to code in a feature to cater for a relatively minor incident.

Also, Truean's request is completely reasonable when coupled with the explanation: Plausible deniability in case one of her lawyerpals decides to start flinging shit and finds Bay12. There's no reason why people shouldn't respect the request.

[4maskwolf]

Now, Mr. Bucket, I think you're being pretty unfair - the behavior you treat everybody equally with is "Respect their quoting preferences", not "Quote at will". It's like you've got something against allowing context into your rules for behavior.

Isn’t the entire argument about not quoting Truean all about Truean maintaining copyright over what Truean has typed?  Truean wants to be the only one to be able to reproduce Truean’s work and disallow anyone else from reproducing it in any post that they make controlling context of the discussion.  If Truean goes back and edits a post that someone has blank responded to it allows Truean the ability to control the discussion and direct the narrative.

That... is entirely not why Truean doesn't want to be quoted, I'm not sure how you got that, and no.

Sorry, this is kind of old, but:

I'm betting it's (2) and (3). (1) is actually vaguely reasonable.

Except that 2 and 3 are both true, I'm male and seen other guys doing those things outside of a restroom context.  Granted, not all guys do that, but enough of them do that it is a definite problem.  It's somewhat disturbing when people deny that some guys act like that or say "well, get over it, guys are guys" because harrassing people because of their gender isn't cool any which way.  I'm not entirely sure how you haven't seen guys acting like that, because the guys at my high school treat women as objects and act perverted all of the time.  There's a reason I have exactly five male friends, all of whom don't act that way.

[Truean]

I am completely and utterly at such a loss that I have to explain this.... I keep running into people who are so completely and utterly clueless about it because it's the new norm to post everything and anything online. They look at me like I'm a moron who is completely insane and makes no sense. The police and the government love you for it, because they will use it against you. NO, don't laugh it's for real and I've had people screaming as they get dragged off to jail that "THEY CAN"T DO THAT!? Yes. They. Can. They have. They will. I've actually represented people who this backfired on.

Does nobody read the news or keep up on things or understand how the real world works with internet posting safety? Are people just so completely lulled into a false sense of security that they just feel not so much as a twinge before they publish anything and everything online.

My god, there's a reason I offered LB the chance to delete his or her post and ESPECIALLY that particular line, because Jesus, do you realize how damaging it would be to them if THAT got into the wrong hands? It could totally and completely ruin them. If anybody ever traced that back to them, they are totally screwed. They should remove it for their own good.

The world is just OVERFLOWING with examples of why it's a terrible idea to just post everything, but people still do:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/03/03/man-loses-80000-legal-settlement-after-daughter-facebook-post-violates/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/17/facebook-firings_n_1003789.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/arrested-over-facebook-po_n_683160.html

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/oddnews/woman%E2%80%99s-dumb-facebook-post-gets-her-in-trouble-214614417.html;_ylt=AwrBT7eOxgRVzLQA5yVXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTByOHZyb21tBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDBHNlYwNzcg--

http://fox8.com/2015/01/06/facebook-post-causes-trouble-for-parolee-in-deadly-westlake-crash/

etc etc etc

That last one is my favorite. For posting this: "Fye posted on Facebook about his release: “Prison didnt break me. It MADE me. Im free. Im a new man. Dont come at me like before. Yes im skinny and muscular now. 7 months of working out everyday. Love my real friends an fam. Shout outs to my fam behind bars. Ill see ya when youre time is near! Miss you brothers!” "

The judge might make him serve 2 years in jail for that post. See he got into a car crash and it ended up killing somebody. He did his time and got out early. Except now that facebook post is going to lead to him going right back to jail....  It wasn't even that bad of a post, but I bet you he wishes to God he didn't make it now....

Seriously, it isn't hard to google it. People just don't care, because this has become the new normal. Why bother with big brother when people will willingly rat themselves out in writing? Don't go thinking it's only "bad people this happens to," because they can twist anything into something to use against you. No, this isn't tin foil hat area and if you think it is then you don't get it. The police do this and people who sue you do this regularly. Ever had a credit card or owe any debts? Get into a car accident? Yeah, anything like that.

Wise up, before it's too late. If I could tell the people I represent anything, it'd be that. I've seen them sink themselves with this shit too much. O you're inconvenienced are you? You've no idea what that is til some harmless thing you've said in print is used against you to screw you over. I've SEEN it happen.

Demanding? No no, once again, you don't have to, but I'll just stop posting on this board if you don't. It's an incredibly easy request and I've demonstrated it repeatedly. It's a very simple common courtesy and frankly I think you should all do it for one another.

Think it's "inconvenient?" O well. If I were you I'd start doing it for everybody. You never know who's going to take something out of context or view something as offensive or whatever and screw you over for it. This should be common knowledge. It's sad that it isn't.

As for me, I'm transgender, and I have to live a lie.... I'm honest about it here, but I guarantee you it'd ruin my life if people found out. I don't care about how it SHOULDN'T. It will. I'm the one who'd have to pay the costs if it got out. So how about please don't complain over having to highlight text and erase it like I'm asking you to move a mountain. It's counted as two keystrokes.... If I have to I can erase things saying I'm trans....

******

And yes, it's a very apt analogy to this topic. Just let people pee where they have to. I wish people would grow up and stop focusing on this crap.... Whole world is going to hell but please, let's not focus on the real problems and play potty police... [sigh].

[4maskwolf]

Truean: While I appreciate your perspective as a lawyer who has seen this happen, I'm not hugely worried for a few reasons:
1. Bay12 is a fairly small, isolated community, and unless that changes I doubt anyone trying to mess with me will come here.  I mean, I suppose they could follow my username, since I've connected it with myself, but that's where the other points come in.
2. I do not plan on being in any profession where people will actually find it worthwhile to try to ruin my reputation.
3. If I am fired because of my social values, then I probably shouldn't be working for those people.  My values are to treat people with respect, and if people fire me because of that I don't want to work for them.
4. When I applied to college, I gave the college admissions people my username and the name of the forum in my Common Application essay.  They chose to admit me despite what I said here (assuming they gave my account a cursory scan), so unless something drastically changes in how/what I post (which would indicate a drastic shift in me) I should be good on that front.
5. If people are really going to go out of their way to misconstrue something I said on this forum in a real-life situation, then that will simply confirm my worst fears about human beings and I'll have nothing else to lose.

Edit: Oh man, we just derailed this to high heaven.

Okay, so, back on the topic of the thread.  In a perfect world, we could have unisex bathrooms and nobody would try and be stupid about it, but that's not the case, so frankly I have no idea what the best answer is in this regard.

[Truean]

"4. When I applied to college, I gave the college admissions people my username and the name of the forum in my Common Application essay.  They chose to admit me despite what I said here (assuming they gave my account a cursory scan), so unless something drastically changes in how/what I post (which would indicate a drastic shift in me) I should be good on that front."

.... You what?    O god, don't tell me this is becoming common. Cause if it is then there goes the other arguments about "small community" and "not being found" Next thing you know people will be telling their employers etc.... O jesus....

Forget all that, it's a simple cost benefit analysis:

The equivalent of two keystrokes saves you soooo much crap. The risk is there and there's NO reward to not doing it.... I just.... Wow.

Edit: This isn't a derail. This is the whole point. Being outted is terrifying to GLBT people and whether it's some jerk using their online posting to out them or forcing a transgender person to use their birth sex instead of their transition sex it's the same idea. That transgender person is going to be paying a terrible price for it....

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Truean: While I appreciate your perspective as a lawyer who has seen this happen, I'm not hugely worried for a few reasons:
1. Bay12 is a fairly small, isolated community, and unless that changes I doubt anyone trying to mess with me will come here.  I mean, I suppose they could follow my username, since I've connected it with myself, but that's where the other points come in.
2. I do not plan on being in any profession where people will actually find it worthwhile to try to ruin my reputation.
3. If I am fired because of my social values, then I probably shouldn't be working for those people.  My values are to treat people with respect, and if people fire me because of that I don't want to work for them.
4. When I applied to college, I gave the college admissions people my username and the name of the forum in my Common Application essay.  They chose to admit me despite what I said here (assuming they gave my account a cursory scan), so unless something drastically changes in how/what I post (which would indicate a drastic shift in me) I should be good on that front.
5. If people are really going to go out of their way to misconstrue something I said on this forum in a real-life situation, then that will simply confirm my worst fears about human beings and I'll have nothing else to lose.

Edit: Oh man, we just derailed this to high heaven.

Okay, so, back on the topic of the thread.  In a perfect world, we could have unisex bathrooms and nobody would try and be stupid about it, but that's not the case, so frankly I have no idea what the best answer is in this regard.

Ugh bro, why would you ever giver a college the name of a forum you frequent?

[Graknorke]

'cause if they don't turn up anything bad then they won't think you're doing shady internet shit.

[4maskwolf]

To clarify, Truean: I wrote an essay about my work on the dwarf fortress section of the forums, and in order to clarify who I was I gave them my username, knowing that they would probably check my account to make sure I hadn't said anything abjectly stupid.  And yes, it would be safer if none of us quoted anyone else, but the problem is that if someone is out to mess you up they'll look up this stuff without you knowing about it and present it against you before you even get wind of it to change it.  The moral of the story is: don't post anything stupid, and there is a lower chance of you getting screwed over.  Even with the ability to edit it out, the chance is still there of being screwed over, because we aren't omniscient beings.

'cause if they don't turn up anything bad then they won't think you're doing shady internet shit.

As stated above, my essay was about Demongate and Steelhold and I was giving them the evidence to back up my claims of what I did.

[Truean]

Not sure I understand you.

[4maskwolf]

*shrugs*

if you scrub what you say, I guess you can.  It makes sense from your position, as a lawyer and whatnot.  But my odds of someone twisting my posts to somehow provide evidence that I committed a crime or something are astronomically low, and without any presence as a public figure nobody should feel the need to try to "discredit" me, so there isn't actually anything to gain and quite a lot to lose by scrubbing my posts from existance.

Edit: Tiruin edited a few posts back and I missed it.

I understand that, but what we were talking about was posting online getting you in trouble with the cops, which IS a derail.  If you want to talk about that topic, go ahead.