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[Aseaheru]

 Default season length has been changed from 10 days?

[pisskop]

14 days was the default.


Now its a terribad 128 or whatever.  And its making seasons even less relevant.  Really 20 would have been fine.  Or 21  *rolleyes*.


But I dont even play most characters for 50 days, let alone 128.

[Random_Dragon]

As I've pointed out elsewhere, the reasoning behind it is that most game mechanics tend to be balanced towards a certain number of days, as implementing new forms of seasonal scaling is a messy process. However, in most cases I can think of, mechanics that use real-world length tend to be to the player's benefit, because the player's ability to act with or against said game mechanic is fixed. A (poorly-implemented, but valid as an example) example is spoilage of non-perishable foods. The player starves at a fixed rate and only has so much time to gather food, so in theory using real-world spoilage rates is good for the player. Of course in that example, numerous problems cause the effective shelf life of long-term goods to be unrealistically short.

The biggest issue with this is the farming right now can't really be untied from seasonal-scaling without problems. As it is now, at 91-day seasons, crop yield tends to be rather low, but at 14-day seasons it's more than enough if you grow it in quantity. However, there is a big issue with decoupling it from season length: winter has a habit of killing crops. So that means that if the sole exception to "no seasonal scaling" is removed then either the game mechanic needs to be overhauled (and not in the way the since-then-reverted farming overhaul tried to do), or you have to remove the option to change season length.

As for 91-day seasons, sometimes I do that and sometimes I don't. For the most part I'd be okay with it, with the sole exception of succession games. Those are MASSIVELY bogged down by 91-day seasons.


In other news, due to the mutation types PR being merged, while I'm still waiting from Kelenius to expand its usage in the JSON, I've implemented a little thing I'd had on the backburner since not long after I first became a CDDA contributor. Because mutations can get broken as hell if you implement a full line-by-line override (which is not even remotely futureproof), modding in mutations is a risky endeavor. But mutation types basically means you can set cancellation without having to touch vanilla mutations.

So, now another bit of random lore has an in-game representation in Arcana: The Dragonblood Sacrament.

[Urist McManiac]

You know, as much as I oppose some of the latest changes in the development of this game, the change of season lenght really is a non-issue. You can easily change that in the settings. You don't even need to change it on a per-world or per-save basis - you change it once and you're good. If you keep your config data between versions - which you can without problems - you don't even need to re-change it when you update the game. I play on 91 day seasons for over a year now and I had to go into the settings to change season lenght... maybe twice?

I can't believe I am defending Kevin, but this discussion almost makes me think some people just have a bone to pick with him.

[Egan_BW]

That is almost certainly the case.

[Random_Dragon]

Most of the issue I've seen has been about two things:
1. People mistakenly thinking that the option has been removed, when it's just the default setting being changed.
2. People concerned about the long-term implications of it.

Thing is, a LOT of discussion has been opened up as a result, making the conversation hard to follow, and it's still not 100% clear what all will happen in terms of "so what next" and such.

And again, see my sentiment: most of what could happen as a follow-up will be to the player's benefit, but there are some things that might go wrong if mishandled.

And that's what I suspect most people who are actually worried by the change are thinking about. Like I said, I don't care about the change ITSELF, but I am keeping an eye on things and trying to figure out what the overall plan is now.

[Urist McManiac]

Most of the issue I've seen has been about two things:
1. People mistakenly thinking that the option has been removed, when it's just the default setting being changed.
2. People concerned about the long-term implications of it.

Thing is, a LOT of discussion has been opened up as a result, making the conversation hard to follow, and it's still not 100% clear what all will happen in terms of "so what next" and such.

And again, see my sentiment: most of what could happen as a follow-up will be to the player's benefit, but there are some things that might go wrong if mishandled.

And that's what I suspect most people who are actually worried by the change are thinking about. Like I said, I don't care about the change ITSELF, but I am keeping an eye on things and trying to figure out what the overall plan is now.

That's fair and reasonable. But some of the latest post on this thread regarding this particular change read as if the poster is close to quit playing this game just because the DEFAULT season length got changed. That's a lot of negativity for such a small change.

[Aseaheru]

Well, roses have been added, as have rose hips. I hope they plan on adding rose hip tea.

[Broseph Stalin]

So I don't think the new longer seasons are anything to go crazy over but I really don't understand why it was done because I really don't know of anyone who has games long enough to experience each season. Isn't it already a major issue that there's not much excitement in the late game? If I survive 20 days most of the fun I have is building an unstoppable war rig and doing stupid things with explosives.

[Egan_BW]

You could just look at it this way: now, by default, the season won't change during gameplay. It does... feel kinda off to me when a game asks you to prepare for winter over the course of just a few weeks. This way, starting in summer, autumn, and winter are like optional world settings.

Of course, if the intent of the change is that the player actually plays one character for 180+ days, then some game balance changes are in order. Make it harder to become boringly unstoppable over the course of one in game week. Make it easier to survive, so that 90 days is a goal that a beginning player can work their way up to, rather than it seeming impossible. Make some of the tasks you'll undertake, like building, take up more in-game time and less out-of-game time, so that the days pass quicker for the player.

...I don't think that a realistic timescale and engaging gameplay need to be mutually incompatible. For example, I think that in DF development, adventure mode and fortress mode timescales will eventually need to get reconsiled.

[Random_Dragon]

Of course, if the intent of the change is that the player actually plays one character for 180+ days, then some game balance changes are in order. Make it harder to become boringly unstoppable over the course of one in game week. Make it easier to survive, so that 90 days is a goal that a beginning player can work their way up to, rather than it seeming impossible. Make some of the tasks you'll undertake, like building, take up more in-game time and less out-of-game time, so that the days pass quicker for the player.

None of that is going to be easy to implement in a sane manner. Best-case scenario, you spend most of your time basically playing an idle game as mundane tasks fly by. Worst-case scenario, you have to micromanage everything and have constant interruptions due to sleep, darkness, your tools needing to be reloaded...

By the time winter arrives, there's a risk that you'll be bored even if you haven't become the Juggernaut.

Meanwhile...hmm. Should I go with my idea of adding some of the basic Dragonblood mutations to Seeker of the Arcane's trait list, or not...

[Descan]

I can't code so I can't add either of these, but I think the addition of either (or both) of a "Craft/Build for how many hours: (X)" and/or automated eating/drinking during long crafts are needed before making things take even longer, like construction.

Of course, they'd be welcome on their own, but eh.

[King Zultan]

I just had a weird thing happen when I grabbed and tried to pull a bicycle over some grass, and it gave me the message, "The bicycle collides with errors in the movement code." any idea what that means?

[Gentlefish]

Probably tried to move wrongly and threw a playerside debug message.

As for construction that might require an overhaul of code, since there's already "parts" of building. It'd be neat if it could be a "placed" thing that doesn't collide or block sight until construction starts, then you choose to put hours into it and it constructs iteratively until done.

By iteratively I mean, at least in the case of walls, posing as a half-wall with cover and difficult terrain like is already coded as a step after x hours and then finishing after y more hours of work.

[Robsoie]

For those curious about the issues still considered in the way of an actual 0.D release :
https://github.com/CleverRaven/Cataclysm-DDA/projects/2