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Author Topic: Nobody Poops  (Read 43522 times)

Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #255 on: May 01, 2015, 06:38:31 pm »

What's turtling?
Closing your dwarves inside the fort until the siege, beast, etc. goes away.
Ok thanks.
We all know what waste is used for in that case...
« Last Edit: May 01, 2015, 06:42:01 pm by AlexanderTheIncompetant »
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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #256 on: May 01, 2015, 06:40:45 pm »

The game is better off without gritty realistic pee and poop simulation.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that, as if Toady tried it and the game suffered.
  It is, however, fair to say the question has been asked, the answer is no, and these threads are pointless.
Toady said no because he didn't like it in the way he or the people who suggested it before envisioned it, but he isn't omniscient and maybe their are ways that it could be implemented that would be approved, but that no one has thought of yet, although I agree that just screaming ADD SHIT GODDAMMIT is useless.
The game already has two hardcoded FILTH materials, and MATERIAL_EMMISION interactions.  If anyone was hellbent on making a pissing contest mod it would have already happened.

i thought of putting fedorafreak into fortbent, who would go around pissing occasionally, but then I realized that that would be dumb

Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #257 on: May 02, 2015, 04:37:24 am »

Joking apart, I really want to see it added as part of the agriculture overhaul which this game really needs. Biomass then cycles through the ecosystem.
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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #258 on: May 03, 2015, 10:55:16 am »

Why not just go back to 23a farming?  You have to replace the mud every year.  Problem solved without having to add gritty realistic pee and poop simulation.

We've had umpteen topics on poop which got turned down.

We've even had forum-wide votes on poop, which pro-poop lost.

Please, please, please, please stop.  It's not going to work, and the obsession with it is quite strange.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 11:20:12 am by Corona688 »
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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #259 on: May 03, 2015, 11:45:36 am »

The game is better off without gritty realistic pee and poop simulation.
I don’t think it’s fair to say that, as if Toady tried it and the game suffered.
  It is, however, fair to say the question has been asked, the answer is no, and these threads are pointless.
I'd like to see where Toady so absolutely refused to add this. If it was in the early days then he at least seems to have softened his position going by more recent posts.

We've even had forum-wide votes on poop, which pro-poop lost.
The poll I remember was undecided with 344 (44.2%) voting yes, 352 (45.2%) no, and 83 (10.7%) yes with an init option to disable.

It's also #17 on the eternal suggestion voting with 205 votes.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 11:51:11 am by Vattic »
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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #260 on: May 03, 2015, 11:54:40 am »

Exactly what I said -- they lost.  Even when you don't count the 10% "yeah whatever, as long as it has an off-switch" as no.

I don't think pro-poop is quite as in love with gritty realistic pee and poop simulation as those opposed hate it, though.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2015, 11:58:20 am by Corona688 »
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Vattic

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #261 on: May 03, 2015, 12:36:46 pm »

I wouldn't call a 44.2% to 45.2% vote a win; There is no clear majority at all. It does a better job of showing how divided the debate was back then. Worth noting you can't count the 'yes, but with an off switch' as a yes or no as people in the debates who supported it also said they'd be happy to see it being optional (much like with tunnelling invaders).

Like has been said many times before in both this thread and the others it could be included in an abstract way (waste water from workshops was a fairly detailed suggestion). As it happens I would love to see regular Nile-like cave river flood plain farming again.

I was mostly posting because you were being so absolute. I can only find quotes of Toady being wary of including it in more detail than the currently included yellow and brown filth, not completely refusing like you claimed (unless you meant fans refusing?). I can't find the umpteen topics where it has been turned down (by who?) only topics, with or without polls, full of debate without clear majority.
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NW_Kohaku

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #262 on: May 04, 2015, 04:14:51 pm »

Whee... First time I come around here in a while, and I immediately see a sewage thread.  Nice to know some things always stay the same...

Anyway, of relevance:
From a Reddit article:
Quote from: ToadyOne
I like fertilizer, animal tracking and sewers. I dislike potty breaks. This is an example of realism that I think has a lot of potential for trouble. Potty breaks in adventure mode might be realistic, but there are immersion issues there. He he he, I mean in the sense of the player being kicked out of their groove. The other kind of immersion wouldn't be so bad, because sewers are common adventure environments. In dwarf mode, dwarves already take a lot of time out for self-maintenance, and this would be a more senseless kind, compared to something like eating.

In the Improved Farming Revised thread, there was a segment to argue for it, specifically

In any event, I would appreciate having sewage systems, and especially making a properly modeled ecosystem using biological waste.

Yes, the 2D DF had a better system than exists now (a lot of systems were actually more sensible back then...) however, that's not nearly enough.  Water is still infinite, and flooding with infinite water for infinite food is NOT a solution.  Even if limited water were introduced, there are still very good reasons to include far more detailed NPK-based nutrient systems.  (And for that matter, Toady has not only said that he is looking forward to it, but it has been put on the Development page, under "Farming Improvements".) 

Further, there are many historical industrial uses for lant, the "decayed" form of urine, which is basically ammonia.  It was critical to the dying industry, used as industrial cleaner, and is the source of nitrate compounds (which means basically all forms of explosive, including black powder) before the advent of the Haber-Bosch Process.  (There were places in Europe where lant was so critically needed - usually textile towns - that it was literally illegal to throw away your waste, and there were wars fought for sources of guano, which was a minable source of nitrates.)

Yes, we could have a more "sensitive" way of handling the topic, and I've suggested just having a "refuse" item produced immediately after a dwarf eats or drinks, but at the same time, DF is not exactly a squeemish game...

As for the always-discussed poop catapults, I'll just remind everyone we can already commit genocides, have continuous projectile vomitting, forced mating for the purpose of butchering infants, the capacity to drown people in blood- or vomit-soaked waters, TORTURE_FOR_FUN:ACCEPTABLE, and people have already modded "succubus fortress" with aimed shots to the groin, projectile lactation weapons, and other things that go beyond any sort of depravity that might possibly be caused by simply having biological waste.  There is ZERO chance this game will get giant waves of publicity as the next thing corrupting the youth/New Rock and Roll, if only because it's not nearly so photogenic as GTA.

As for the poll, 10.7% "yes with an option so it can be turned off" is still a yes, just a yes where people agree that those who don't want it shouldn't have to have it.  That's 54% that said "yes" it should be in the game in at least some form, which is a majority the last time I checked.  While it's not a full-on endorsement of throwing it all in there, you can't just glibly pretend a "yes" is a "no" just to help your argument.
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DG

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #263 on: May 04, 2015, 06:19:51 pm »

Your posts were what persuaded me to change my mind on waste however long ago. I still think that the "I want to drown x in y!" brigade would be doing the cause a favour by keeping it to themselves, unless they're just agent provocateurs.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #264 on: May 05, 2015, 12:23:14 pm »

My primary reason for adding faeces is their use in agriculture. Weaponisation comes later.

There has never been a massive consensus one way or the other. There has always been debate.
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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #265 on: May 05, 2015, 01:45:42 pm »

There has never been a massive consensus one way or the other. There has always been debate.

The same can be said for "gay dwarves"/orientation.  There was always a contingent of people dead-set against the idea of non-heterosexual dwarves.  If things only get done when there is unanimous consent, then only the most trivial of things get done.

Of course, Toady can just not give a damn what the majority or minority thinks.  The Suggestions Forum, if you get past arguing just for the sheer joy of argument, is basically one where only one man's vote really counts.
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Vattic

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #266 on: May 07, 2015, 03:15:57 pm »

NW_Kohaku: Welcome back and thanks for finding that quote from Toady; I had looked for it more than once without success.
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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #267 on: May 07, 2015, 03:37:00 pm »

Look, do you really want to see all the myriad ways the DF community will weaponise this? It'll be bloody Mermaid Farming all over again.
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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #268 on: May 07, 2015, 05:43:38 pm »

Look, do you really want to see all the myriad ways the DF community will weaponise this? It'll be bloody Mermaid Farming all over again.
The FILTH materials are already in the game, and modders have already turned nestboxes into commodes.  Last I checked, the world didn't end.  The suggestion is more about attaching some use to the stuff.  Toady does seem to be against potty breaks, but with dwarves now attending to multiple different needs it may not be as big a deal now.

"I need to get back to the mega-project soon.  Do I dance at the tavern, pray at the temple, or poop?  Decisions, decisions..."
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Nobody Poops
« Reply #269 on: May 08, 2015, 10:08:10 am »

Just merge the toilet break with eating and drinking, happening afterwards. That keeps the number of breaks the same, only making them slightly longer, and would make some sense too.
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