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[Orange Wizard]

pathfinda is teh bestest guise

srsly

[Rex Invictus]

pathfinda is teh bestest guise

srsly

That is exactly what I've said. Thank you for summarising it so succinctly.

[Flying Dice]

It really is, though. Your very first post in the thread was obvious bait, and everything since has been you trying to convince people who don't particularly care that they should drop everything else and play PF because it's what the cool kids are doing.

I mean, I'm assuming that nobody else is taking this particularly seriously beyond mild curiosity to see how far you're willing to go in your quest to ensure that everyone plays your sooper speshul set of houserules and nothing else.

It's not even like PF is bad (in particular the changes to item creation costs, innate feat gain, encounter balancing, and certain skill aggregates come to mind), but it's not exactly groundbreaking (a large number of the "changes" it made are pretty standard houserules for 3.5e campaigns) and is ultimately a matter of taste. The changes to races are yawnworthy, the changes to classes range from good (reducing dead levels, at-will cantrips and orisons, scaling save DCs) to 'whatever' (the vast majority of them) to terrible (buffing caster HD in addition to at-will 0th levels AND further buffs at higher levels, making short level dips less worthwhile, thinking that full BAB is all it takes to make Monks not be shit rather than a decent foundation for doing so, trying to make Flurry better but still leaving it as the shitty alternative to Decisive Strike if you're building a DPS Monk for some reason, and to reiterate because it need to be said again: buffing primary casters almost completely across the board, most of the skills rebalance, &c.), and it really doesn't make much of a departure from what people were already doing to fix 3.5... other than making Paizo a bunch of money reselling books to people who couldn't figure out how to make up their own houserules or copy decent ones from other groups.

tl;dr: I don't like your precious and there's nothing you can do about it. Neener neener neener.

[scriver]

I mean, I'm assuming that nobody else is taking this particularly seriously beyond mild curiosity to see how far you're willing to go in your quest to ensure that everyone plays your sooper speshul set of houserules and nothing else.

The impression I get from this discussion is quite the opposite - that there's one guy arguing for his favourite ruleset (which in itself is pretty "no duh" behaviour) and several people arguing against him because it's super important to them that some guy knows when he is wrong on the internet. So don't try that "I'm so cool and don't really care about this argument like whatever also by the way here is another of the many paragraphs I've written on the subject but whatever I don't care" act. It's pretty cheap.

[Rex Invictus]

It really is, though. Your very first post in the thread was obvious bait, and everything since has been you trying to convince people who don't particularly care that they should drop everything else and play PF because it's what the cool kids are doing.

I mean, I'm assuming that nobody else is taking this particularly seriously beyond mild curiosity to see how far you're willing to go in your quest to ensure that everyone plays your sooper speshul set of houserules and nothing else.

It's not even like PF is bad (in particular the changes to item creation costs, innate feat gain, encounter balancing, and certain skill aggregates come to mind), but it's not exactly groundbreaking (a large number of the "changes" it made are pretty standard houserules for 3.5e campaigns) and is ultimately a matter of taste. The changes to races are yawnworthy, the changes to classes range from good (reducing dead levels, at-will cantrips and orisons, scaling save DCs) to 'whatever' (the vast majority of them) to terrible (buffing caster HD in addition to at-will 0th levels AND further buffs at higher levels, making short level dips less worthwhile, thinking that full BAB is all it takes to make Monks not be shit rather than a decent foundation for doing so, trying to make Flurry better but still leaving it as the shitty alternative to Decisive Strike if you're building a DPS Monk for some reason, and to reiterate because it need to be said again: buffing primary casters almost completely across the board, most of the skills rebalance, &c.), and it really doesn't make much of a departure from what people were already doing to fix 3.5... other than making Paizo a bunch of money reselling books to people who couldn't figure out how to make up their own houserules or copy decent ones from other groups.

tl;dr: I don't like your precious and there's nothing you can do about it. Neener neener neener.

At least you stopped claiming that Pathfinder is less played than 3.5. :3

that there's one guy arguing for his favourite ruleset (which in itself is pretty "no duh" behaviour)

The funniest part is that it's really not my favourite ruleset. That title belongs to ACKS alone, with RuneQuest a close second. It's just that the idea of Pathfinder being less played than 3.5 nowadays is hilarious.

[Orange Wizard]

Except it isn't, because it's a poorly-defined statistic. We have search rankings, which are pretty favourable towards PF, and a chart of games played on roll20 or whatever it was, wherein D&D still outranked Pathfinder by virtue of having lots of versions.

[Rex Invictus]

Except it isn't, because it's a poorly-defined statistic. We have search rankings, which are pretty favourable towards PF, and a chart of games played on roll20 or whatever it was, wherein D&D still outranked Pathfinder by virtue of having lots of versions.

Having lots of versions that appeal to wildly different types of players. Like I said:

The percentage of D&D games adds to 41.26%, a.k.a. almost double that of Pathfinder.

E: Actually, I missed out AD&D and Original D&D, which brings us up to 44.60%.

Combining 3.5, 4e and 5e is like lumping together a type of apples, an MMOs and a book.

Roll20 is literally the biggest online roleplaying site. It's pretty damn huge.

[My Name is Immaterial]

I think the guy who came in to start an argument won it.

This is strange.

Doesn't make Pathfinder any less over-developed.

[Sergarr]

Knowing the origin of the image and context of the situation, I can't help but chuckle a little, because it seriously resembles whatever you're doing here.

[Tack]

Woah woah.
I'd like to state that I was the one who bought up the supremacy of Pathfinder first (look it up).
The only difference was that Invictus used solid information to back up his case, whilst it appears that Orange Wizard and Flying Dice are fanboying out hard.
I also fanboy out hard for Pathfinder (which is a massively awesome game and so much better than D&D; just more balanced in general and wonderfully active in the community), but when people refute my facts with their facts, I don't immediately start shouting "WELL LOOK WHO'S A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE"!

Long story short, chill your ass.
All versions of DnD are more popular than Pathfinder, and we can't assume that the google searches for "pathfinder" weren't 40K nerds or people trying to find a lawnmowing company or somrthing.
However the stats don't lie that Pathfinder has beaten out the version of DnD it was ripped from. Whoopdee-freaking-do.
Again, amplify your relaxed states and stop trying to start a flame war on whose goddamn beer and pretzels game is cooler.

[Rex Invictus]

<snip>

1. ILU

we can't assume that the google searches for "pathfinder" weren't 40K nerds

2. I actually made sure this criticism wouldn't be valid by ensuring the search term used was Pathfinder Roleplaying Game. :p

[Sergarr]

Pathfinder

more balanced

Are we talking about the same game which hasn't changed the whole "magic > everything else" problem and hasn't actually nerfed most of broken/overpowered spells?

[Rex Invictus]

Pathfinder

more balanced

Are we talking about the same game which hasn't changed the whole "magic > everything else" problem and hasn't actually nerfed most of broken/overpowered spells?

I'm not going to deny magic has the potential to be stronger than everything else, because it does.

Pathfinder did, however, shift along the ability to break the game to about 17th level and almost no campaign starting from 1st level will reach that. On top of that, Pathfinder made it so that you can no longer have heavily armoured clerics hitting for harder than the fighter, casting more versatile spells than the wizard and binding angels to himself to fight his enemies. Clerics will pretty much only have one of those, now, and they usually don't have the first one without sacrificing a lot.

It also puts some constraints on the scarily broken stuff like wish, by at least making it have a cost regardless of the situation.

[Sergarr]

Pathfinder

more balanced

Are we talking about the same game which hasn't changed the whole "magic > everything else" problem and hasn't actually nerfed most of broken/overpowered spells?

I'm not going to deny magic has the potential to be stronger than everything else, because it does.

Pathfinder did, however, shift along the ability to break the game to about 17th level and almost no campaign starting from 1st level will reach that. On top of that, Pathfinder made it so that you can no longer have heavily armoured clerics hitting for harder than the fighter, casting more versatile spells than the wizard and binding angels to himself to fight his enemies. Clerics will pretty much only have one of those, now, and they usually don't have the first one without sacrificing a lot.

It also puts some constraints on the scarily broken stuff like wish, by at least making it have a cost regardless of the situation.

The fly spell alone breaks the game, and it is a fucking circle three spell, which is level 5 wizard/sorcerer.

It trivializes any outdoor combat situation against non-flying enemies without ranged attacks (such as Fighters and Paladins, who get to eat shit) and there are quite a lot of those. It also shits over any land obstacles the adventure may have by allowing people to simply bypass them from above.

Or how about invisibility? Only a circle two spell!

Or how about a combination of both flight and invisibility? You only need to be a level 5 wizard/sorcerer to do that, and that combination makes you an absolute nightmare for a mundane character to deal with.

[Tack]

Oh everything in brackets was me being crazy facetious.

But invisible flying Mage looks fun, I gotta try it.