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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 664567 times)

Egan_BW

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6330 on: February 06, 2018, 12:47:16 am »

Almost certainly, but I presume it lacks many of the vital survival traits of a popular religion, so it might just die out after a generation or so.
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TD1

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6331 on: February 19, 2018, 08:03:19 am »

Another idle wondering: reading the hagiographical writings of Early Medieval history (Saints' Lives), I'm struck by a sudden realisation on just how religion became so ingrained. There are claims written that , for instance, Saint Columbanus prayed for the King's wife and she was healed at the exact moment the prayer ended. Apparently the King questioned them as to the exact time to be sure. This is written down with conviction not long after the fact; anyone reading it, especially a Christian, would be compelled to believe. So they had belief in miracles, or at least ample literature telling them to. If they hadn't seen one, so what? Nowadays I haven't seen Mt. Everest, but I know it exists.

Nowadays we also have technology which narrows that ability for credulity, so books can't proliferate it in the same way. Some obviously do make claims, but conveniently never verified ones. In the older days, they both knew they happened and believed miracles had suitable evidence, which obviously made belief more practical and grounded in reality. [/random]
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Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6332 on: July 16, 2018, 01:05:33 pm »

I'm bumping this to the first page because people keep bemoaning that there is no religion thread, but here it is: Glorious Railgun Thread.

To kick things off, I'm rather concerned with the wave of religious fanaticism that is gripping my country. You got evangelicals (neopentescopals) actively attacking non-Christians and, the newest and more suprising devellopment, Pope-hating catholic fanatics that combine the US satanist/communist scare with plain old religious intolerance and neoliberalism because why not. I'm wondering if any other countries with a sizable catholic population are having similar stuff happen.
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Rolan7

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6333 on: July 16, 2018, 01:15:47 pm »

I misremembered how much of this thread was actual religion discussion, heh.  Thanks.

For now, I'll just echo your concerns.  As always I want to acknowledge that *most* Christians aren't like that.  That's wonderful, and I want us all to get along.  But too much of Congress is unabashedly using personal religion to choose legislation.

The Supreme Court has always been the main check on that, even when it's otherwise Conservative (to the credit of the Justices).  I'm worried that newest latest Justice will weaken that check.
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Doomblade187

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6334 on: July 16, 2018, 01:22:15 pm »

I feel that there's been a big push by Evangelical organizations lately- I see it in the news a lot. Lots of news coverage and the like. I hadn't heard anything about the shift in Catholic behavior in Brazil thoughm
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Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6335 on: July 16, 2018, 01:32:13 pm »

I hadn't heard anything about the shift in Catholic behavior in Brazil thoughm
To be honest, you don't really hear anything about Brazil in general if you aren't in South America.
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Telgin

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6336 on: July 16, 2018, 02:28:45 pm »

I'm bumping this to the first page because people keep bemoaning that there is no religion thread, but here it is: Glorious Railgun Thread.

To kick things off, I'm rather concerned with the wave of religious fanaticism that is gripping my country. You got evangelicals (neopentescopals) actively attacking non-Christians and, the newest and more suprising devellopment, Pope-hating catholic fanatics that combine the US satanist/communist scare with plain old religious intolerance and neoliberalism because why not. I'm wondering if any other countries with a sizable catholic population are having similar stuff happen.

I don't really know enough about Catholicism to have an in depth discussion, but I can say that I heard a coworker (in the United States) get into a heated discussion with another coworker about the pope's authority over him as a Catholic.  Evidently, as far as he's concerned the pope has no authority over his religious beliefs whatsoever, which came as a surprise to me and pretty much everyone else present.

Admittedly, having grown up in a Protestant community, just about everything in Catholicism seems mysterious, but as an outsider I was under the impression that the Catholic church had a very strong notion of religious authority, where the pope could (in grossly oversimplified terms) say one day that women could be priests and that would be that.  That's opposed to most Protestant denominations, where there's almost no central authority, and any individual church can always decide to just do things their own way if they don't care about leaving the conference they're part of (if they're even part of one).

Clearly, this is not a correct understanding of how Catholicism works.
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Grim Portent

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6337 on: July 16, 2018, 03:00:40 pm »

Some Catholic sects don't acknowledge the Papacy because they feel it's made reforms over the past 60 years or so that make it un-Catholic. Some have their own mini-Popes others just make do without one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedevacantism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conclavism

You also get some Catholic groups that are just weird about when they care about Papal authority, or who accept the idea the Pope is in charge of the faith but don't care at all about anything he says.
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Arcvasti

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6338 on: July 16, 2018, 03:03:41 pm »

I'm fairly sure that that is a correct notion of how Catholicism works, but I'm just as sure that is mostly true because the Pope doesn't do that sort of thing very often.
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dragdeler

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6339 on: July 16, 2018, 03:20:06 pm »

-snip-
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 01:53:19 pm by dragdeler »
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Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6340 on: July 16, 2018, 03:34:24 pm »

My impression is that even old people don't give a damn about the pope in general, any sane person would advise their teen grandchildren to contracept in the unlikely scenario they ever happen to talk about that The pope's just part of the whole arcane ceremonial show; you get it over with because afterwards you're just glad it's over, like chores. And that's just all there is to the deal: guilt and absolution.
The current Pope seems to be more than alright with contraception, so that's not really the issue here. Main complaints I've heard is that he's too liberal, not condemning homosexuals just for existing, leaning a bit towards socialism over capitalism, being ok with other religions and, of course, being argentinian.
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Telgin

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6341 on: July 16, 2018, 03:37:04 pm »

I'm fairly sure that that is a correct notion of how Catholicism works, but I'm just as sure that is mostly true because the Pope doesn't do that sort of thing very often.

This part is true enough, I guess.  I know that there is some notion that the pope can't say anything that contradicts God's will, or something like that, but it only applies under extremely specific circumstances that I imagine no pope ever puts themselves in anymore for many reasons.  Likewise, I imagine they don't try to change the rules in general very often for similar reasons.

It's interesting that there would be Catholic sects that disregard papal authority like that, though.  As an outsider, that seems to be severing its ties with one of the things that makes it Catholic in the first place, but I guess you can still follow the traditions and claim that that's what makes someone Catholic, not the authority of a distant church figurehead.
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Teneb

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6342 on: July 16, 2018, 03:40:33 pm »

I suppose it's also worth noting that Catholicism changes radically in some parts of the world, such as... *drumroll* Brazil. Here and in Mexico, the Cult of Saints is not only very much alive, but also a very major part of Catholicism. One of the major ways you can actually tell apart catholics and evangelicals is if they invoke Jesus or a saint. Catholics invoking Jesus is infrequent at best.

The Papacy knows better than to contest this, though.
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dragdeler

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6343 on: July 16, 2018, 03:49:46 pm »

-snip-
« Last Edit: January 18, 2019, 01:58:31 pm by dragdeler »
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Persus13

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Re: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion
« Reply #6344 on: July 16, 2018, 03:50:41 pm »

I don't really know enough about Catholicism to have an in depth discussion, but I can say that I heard a coworker (in the United States) get into a heated discussion with another coworker about the pope's authority over him as a Catholic.  Evidently, as far as he's concerned the pope has no authority over his religious beliefs whatsoever, which came as a surprise to me and pretty much everyone else present.

Admittedly, having grown up in a Protestant community, just about everything in Catholicism seems mysterious, but as an outsider I was under the impression that the Catholic church had a very strong notion of religious authority, where the pope could (in grossly oversimplified terms) say one day that women could be priests and that would be that.  That's opposed to most Protestant denominations, where there's almost no central authority, and any individual church can always decide to just do things their own way if they don't care about leaving the conference they're part of (if they're even part of one).

Clearly, this is not a correct understanding of how Catholicism works.
Your coworker is probably exaggerating things to make a point, but he's largely correct (Disclaimer: I'm not a Catholic, I just read a lot about Christian religious history, and know some Catholics). The main power of the pope is that he's the head of a religious denomination and bureaucracy that over a billion people are members of. So what he says about religious matters is taken seriously, and he has some control over who gets appointed bishop and money matters. But the Catholic Church isn't and never was a one-man show, so there are plenty of people under the Pope who are also influential and counsel the pope and have their own jobs, like Vatican treasurer, or archbishop of Los Angeles, etc. So your coworker may or may not pay attention to what the pope is doing, but if he attends a church, his priest probably pays attention. And like Teneb and Grim Portent, said, Catholicism is not a monolith, and is very different in different places, because that's what happens with people.

There is a doctrine of Papal infallibility that says the Pope can make statements that are without error, or ex cathedra. But those are pretty rare and there's limits over what this can be applied to. Wikipedia cites a list of 7 or so papal documents that are considered infallible, with the caveat that its not a comprehensive list. But the most recent of the 7 was from 1950. I think this is what Arcvasti is talking about.

I know pope Francis has been getting a lot of flack from conservative Catholics in the United States, some of whom are part of the Religious Right, because he's too liberal for them (mainly over the issue of divorced Catholics). I've also seen criticism of him for not doing more about reforming the papacy to prevent corruption and covering up sexual abuse, but I don't know enough about that to make a judgement on that.

Again, I'm also not a Catholic, so if any of this is wrong, feel free to correct me.
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