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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[Teneb]

On sin and the christian perception of it, there have been a lot of people through the centuries trying to figure out why God, since he is supposed to be all-mighty, allows people to sin.

Pope Gregory the Great (later Saint Gregory), for instance, theorized in his many works that God let sin exist so people could better themselves by their own initiative, by resisting it and repenting when they didn't manage to.

Frankly, it's a better explanation than a bipolar deity, even if less amusing.

[Rolan7]

Would you feel inclined to forgive someone who kicked you in the shin, said "it's okay if I apologise, so I'm sorry", kicked you in the shin again, saying "it's okay if I apologise"?
Of course not, you'd think he's a dick. People aren't sorry if they're not trying to do things differently afterwards.

I'm up waaay too late but real quick, hope this makes sense...
What if they're actually sorry, but they have a poisonous ingrained behavior (like wrath in that case, or maybe gluttony or sloth).  They keep trying to reform, and are honestly sorry that their sin is hurting others.

I think what I was trying to say is that there's a huge difference between support, and enabling.  Personally, if I'm slipping into one of my self-destructive behaviors, I don't want forgiveness until I manage to fight it off.  Having help is important, but premature unconditional forgiveness is unhelpful... removes the incentive.  Enables the behavior.  Can twist a good relationship into an abusive one.

I've been an enabler, and the enabled, and maybe that's part of why I'm leery of the concept.  Nothing good comes out of it.
Of course I'm sure Christians don't see it as Jesus enabling them.  It just looks pretty similar to me right now.

For example, a big part of Jesus's teaching was that the magnitude of sin doesn't matter when it comes to forgiveness.  Feeling any lust makes you an adulterer, feeling any hate makes you a murderer.  No one can reach heaven without Jesus's forgiveness, which no one deserves.
Obviously Christians still have normal consciences which make them feel worse about heavier sins (or actually acting on it)...  It's just a bit eerie to me that the NT really downplays that.

Of course a Christian needs to try not to avoid sin, or else they're not actually regretful.  I just don't see any religious incentive to try hard, though, and a lot of self-described Christians don't either.  A moment's doubt before the act counts as being sorry.

I'm sorry if this doesn't make any sense, or if it's unintentionally offensive.  I'm just sleepy.
[6 new replies] uh oh- oh good it's fine, I just typed long. [1 new reply]

[Orange Wizard]

I'm up waaay too late but real quick, hope this makes sense...

Me too

What if they're actually sorry, but they have a poisonous ingrained behavior (like wrath in that case, or maybe gluttony or sloth).  They keep trying to reform, and are honestly sorry that their sin is hurting others.

If they're putting effort in, then that's good. Nobody's perfect, trying counts for a lot.

I think what I was trying to say is that there's a huge difference between support, and enabling.  Personally, if I'm slipping into one of my self-destructive behaviors, I don't want forgiveness until I manage to fight it off.  Having help is important, but premature unconditional forgiveness is unhelpful... removes the incentive.  Enables the behavior.  Can twist a good relationship into an abusive one.

I've been an enabler, and the enabled, and maybe that's part of why I'm leery of the concept.  Nothing good comes out of it.
Of course I'm sure Christians don't see it as Jesus enabling them.  It just looks pretty similar to me right now.

Kinda agree with you here, actually. I think the saved-by-grace people try to overemphasise the "no works" part of things to the point where it almost sounds like trying to do good is pointless, when it's really the whole point.

For example, a big part of Jesus's teaching was that the magnitude of sin doesn't matter when it comes to forgiveness.  Feeling any lust makes you an adulterer, feeling any hate makes you a murderer.  No one can reach heaven without Jesus's forgiveness, which no one deserves.
Obviously Christians still have normal consciences which make them feel worse about heavier sins (or actually acting on it)...  It's just a bit eerie to me that the NT really downplays that.

Of course a Christian needs to try not to avoid sin, or else they're not actually regretful.  I just don't see any religious incentive to try hard, though, and a lot of self-described Christians don't either.  A moment's doubt before the act counts as being sorry.

[/quote]
Eh. The NT definitely doesn't downplay the punishment for sins, or their scope. Major sins are still major, require a major apology, and major effort to change things. Minor sins are minor, unless it's a habit or somesuch, in which case you'd be trying to break the habit, and so on.
For forgiveness' part, it's more that Christ's sacrifice was big enough, and less that your sin was minor enough to be forgiven.

[Rolan7]

Yeah that's true Catholicism seems to take penance seriously, I like that about it

[scrdest]

May I tempt you with some delicious devils-food cake?

I'll take some Baal bread, that stuff's great.

The smoke from the burning children guarantees only the best of flavors!

[smirk]

Prices are brutal, though. Had to trade my immortal soul for two Heil Marys and a bag of Churros Diabolico.

[TempAcc]

Gonna order me a double satan with fried souls combo.

Anyway, my view on redemption/salvation through work is basically the same as OW's. Repenting is only the first step, you have to actualy try to repair the damage you've caused with your sins. Spiritism goes a step further and says that trying is great, but isn't enough by itself either, which is why it is against things such as flagellation and other self imposed punishments like that, because punishing yourself isn't likely to do anything to repair the damage you caused, and instead just causes you to do more evil, since you're essentialy pretending to do good by doing something that doesn't affect anyone but yourself. So, if you stole something, you should prob try to either give the thing back or compensate for the person's loss if thats not possible.

Your effort and your intentions that you put into helping people still do matter a lot, though. An indigent that gives away his only piece of food to save someone from starvation while only thinking of said person's wellbeing is more worthy than a rich man who gives away half his wealth to the poor while thinking of all the great PR he'll get out of it. The rich man will get the reward he deserves (great PR, which he expected), and so will the indigent, who will be saved, since he only thought of another's wellbeing while never expecting any reward.

Salvation is kind of a effy concept in spiritism though, since there's no defined hell to be saved from :v

[Loud Whispers]

A new high-tech weapon designed for the U.S. Navy could be a game changer during a conflict, but at what cost? Manufacturing the railgun electromagnetic cannon fetches a significant fee, but defense officials have said its potential benefits far outweigh the negatives, Defense News reported.

The railgun's price tag exceeds half a billion dollars, but it can reportedly shoot faster than the speed of sound, at about 5,700 miles per hour, and hit moving targets with more precision than many existing weapons.

“The railgun is revolutionary in terms of how much it can accelerate the bullet,” said Tom Boucher, the railgun program manager for the Office of Naval Research. “Powder guns have been matured to the point where you are going to get the most out of them. Railguns are just beginning.”

Respect the bullet

[Teneb]

May I tempt you with some delicious devils-food cake?

I'll take some Baal bread, that stuff's great.

The smoke from the burning children guarantees only the best of flavors!

On a somewhat related tangent, today I learned the recipe for penitence bread, which is actually not regular bread. 1/3 wheat flour, 1/3 ash, 1/3 salt and water. Remember kids: what's toxic for your body is purifying for your soul!

Or just go to Lucifer's and order a double brimstone burger.

[TempAcc]

A new high-tech weapon designed for the U.S. Navy could be a game changer during a conflict, but at what cost? Manufacturing the railgun electromagnetic cannon fetches a significant fee, but defense officials have said its potential benefits far outweigh the negatives, Defense News reported.

The railgun's price tag exceeds half a billion dollars, but it can reportedly shoot faster than the speed of sound, at about 5,700 miles per hour, and hit moving targets with more precision than many existing weapons.

“The railgun is revolutionary in terms of how much it can accelerate the bullet,” said Tom Boucher, the railgun program manager for the Office of Naval Research. “Powder guns have been matured to the point where you are going to get the most out of them. Railguns are just beginning.”

Respect the bullet

Didn't they recently make a breakthrough that essentialy allows a railgun to fire hundreds or so shots before the rails actualy have to be replaced? That was the main problem with it, and with that out of the way, railguns pretty much outclass any ship mounted weaponry since missiles are more expensive on a per-shot basis, lasers don't have that much range and require exotic gasses and shit and regular cannons don't come close on range and projectile speed.

[Loud Whispers]

Didn't they recently make a breakthrough that essentialy allows a railgun to fire hundreds or so shots before the rails actualy have to be replaced? That was the main problem with it, and with that out of the way, railguns pretty much outclass any ship mounted weaponry since missiles are more expensive on a per-shot basis, lasers don't have that much range and require exotic gasses and shit and regular cannons don't come close on range and projectile speed.

I haven't heard anything about that
The big one to look out for is getting thousands of shots with your railgun before replacement, that changes everything

Goodbye to destroyers and carriers, hello to drone carriers and battleships

[Dozebôm Lolumzalìs]

Holy Cthulthu, a works-or-faith discussion that hasn't erupted in flames?! Go Bay12! (I distinctly remember one such argument that ended in the One Holy Church fracturing into thousands of pieces. That was big.)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yes, I'm that old. hehehe, much older than that...

[Arcvasti]

Holy Cthulthu, a works-or-faith discussion that hasn't erupted in flames?!

even the flames bow before the power of the most high railgun

[Rolan7]

Cthulhu versus railgun?
Discuss.

[Teneb]

Cthulhu versus railgun?
Discuss.

Don't be silly, Cthulhu is a railgun.