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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[MetalSlimeHunt]

That's been done de-facto through polls divided by religion. It varies pretty massively, as any conservative or RadTrad Catholic will be happy to endlessly tell you.

[Rolepgeek]

I don't believe I *deserve* absolute salvation.  I sinned against my morals, and I regret that.  And if I still get infinite perfection as a reward despite my unresolved shame, if I say sorry, I guess God is someone who values apology over reasonable morality.

?

I mean, I feel like the solution here is to resolve the shame. Which might be damn hard, but even from a purely materialistic standpoint, unless you consider all of you responsible for all the rest of you, there's so many influences on your behavior that you can't control that affect everything you do...feel bad about it if it helps you avoid a repeat, but guilt has a purpose.

I think, also, that our definitions of reasonable morality differ. For me, the fact that someone is willing to apologize and mean it is worth a lot. In fact, my objections to the concept of a Christian afterlife are basically the opposite of yours, so maybe it might not be the best idea to try and critique if we're gonna come at it from polar opposites in perspective

[Rolan7]

I spent a long time regretting my mistakes, and being honestly sorry, and just wallowing in that guilt and self-hate.  And I've known other people who did the same.

Honest regret is a good first step, but if it just leads to despair then it's worthless.  There has to be a will to fix the problem.  That's infinitely more important than forgiveness, at least in my experience.

I spent too much time being forgiven, and then later on forgiving a couple of people, and observing that it doesn't help anything.  Infinite forgiveness is a mistake that just hurts both parties.  It's lazy idealism, ego-stroking for the forgiver.

Useful forgiveness can only come when the bad behavior is overcome, and even then it doesn't really matter except to repair a relationship with someone real.

So yeah, it's vital to address the underlying cause of the shame and fix it.  Forgiveness-doctrine doesn't emphasize that at all.  Many churches do address it, out of practicality rather than doctrine.  The underlying message of Christianity is "We're all sinners, unavoidably.  If you admit you feel bad, this blood ritual will wipe away any amount of mistakes".  Feeling bad solves nothing by itself.

[Rolepgeek]

Well, yeah. That's how being sorry works though. It's not about regret, it's about change. You don't say "I'm sorry, but I'm still not gonna do anything to try and fix this" to God. You say "I want to change. Forgive my past mistakes, and judge me instead for my future actions." Being willing to apologize means being willing to try and fix it. Otherwise you're just giving lip service to the person that was hurt.

My point about guilt having a purpose is that you shouldn't use it when it accomplishes nothing. If you're taking actions that make you feel guilty on a regular basis, the guilt is not doing it's job, and you need to take a different approach.

I mean, as far as I know, you can get into heaven even if you get hit by a bus stepping out of the confessional, and haven't had time to fix what was wrong, but it seems clear why that might be the case.

[Orange Wizard]

The underlying message of Christianity is "We're all sinners, unavoidably.  If you admit you feel bad, and make an honest effort to right the wrongs and change yourself, this blood ritual will wipe away any amount of mistakes".  Feeling bad solves nothing by itself.

FTFY

[MetalSlimeHunt]

OW confirmed for works-based salvation heretic.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

Can't you just punish yourself?

Unrelated to previous sentence: I've discussed religion with my formerly-agnostic father and Catholic mother. It was quite interesting.

Spoiler: story (click to show/hide)

Backstory: So my father's technically Catholic, but he has beliefs quite contrary to several teachings. My mother is similar, possibly to a lesser extent. (My father tends to discuss philosophy and religion and science with me more than my mother does, so I understand his religious beliefs more than hers.)

So I'm also Catholic. I go to religious ed, and unusual for someone my age, actually participates and thinks hard about things. However, I disagree with many "modern-day applications and teachings" of Catholicism. Whenever something like abortion or euthanasia or such is discussed, I tend to take the liberal/"shades of grey" stance, while Pam, the sort of "head" teacher of religious ed, teaches a more "black and white"/somewhat conservative view. (No hard feelings; she enjoys the conversations we have, while I understand that she's pretty much required to teach "black and white" stuff to us.)

But more than just disagreeing with modern, conservative applications of Catholicism, I've recently started rethinking central tenets of Catholicism, like "Jesus is both the literal Son of God, and he's fully divine, and he's fully human, DEEP HUH." I've also re-evaluated my belief, and found none. I don't believe that a god or God exists. (Not that I believe that no god exists; I'm agnostic, not atheist.) Everything can be explained by science, as far as I can tell. There's just no evidence for God. (And the Bible doesn't count. Here's a possible holy book: "This book is true, the sky is blue, I wear antiparticle shoes." Obviously, a book stating that it is true... could be FALSE!)

So I talked with my mother about how I was pretty sure I was agnostic, and was reconsidering doing Confirmation. And I ended up deciding that I was going to stay.

I'm going to continue being Catholic, because a possible application of the Bible and other Catholic stuff agrees with my own ethics. It's not the Catholic God I believe in, nor the Pope, nor the church authorities. It's the ethics I derive from what I believe to be a mainly fictional book. And I only believe in them because I agree with them. Mostly.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Many church doctrines were decided by committee instead of revelation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

[Orange Wizard]

OW confirmed for works-based salvation heretic.

Would you feel inclined to forgive someone who kicked you in the shin, said "it's okay if I apologise, so I'm sorry", kicked you in the shin again, saying "it's okay if I apologise"?
Of course not, you'd think he's a dick. People aren't sorry if they're not trying to do things differently afterwards.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

OW confirmed for works-based salvation heretic.

Would you feel inclined to forgive someone who kicked you in the shin, said "it's okay if I apologise, so I'm sorry", kicked you in the shin again, saying "it's okay if I apologise"?
Of course not, you'd think he's a dick. People aren't sorry if they're not trying to do things differently afterwards.

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Repent of your heresy, patsy of Satan. Your delicious cream filling will not save you on the day of judgement.

[Grim Portent]

OW confirmed for works-based salvation heretic.

Would you feel inclined to forgive someone who kicked you in the shin, said "it's okay if I apologise, so I'm sorry", kicked you in the shin again, saying "it's okay if I apologise"?
Of course not, you'd think he's a dick. People aren't sorry if they're not trying to do things differently afterwards.

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Repent of your heresy, patsy of Satan. Your delicious cream filling will not save you on the day of judgement.

I could go for some Satanic Pastries about now. They're sinfully delicious. 

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

OW confirmed for works-based salvation heretic.

Would you feel inclined to forgive someone who kicked you in the shin, said "it's okay if I apologise, so I'm sorry", kicked you in the shin again, saying "it's okay if I apologise"?
Of course not, you'd think he's a dick. People aren't sorry if they're not trying to do things differently afterwards.

All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

Repent of your heresy, patsy of Satan. Your delicious cream filling will not save you on the day of judgement.

I could go for some Satanic Pastries about now. They're sinfully delicious. 

May I tempt you with some delicious devils-food cake?

[Orange Wizard]

May I tempt you with some delicious devils-food cake?

I'll take some Baal bread, that stuff's great.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

It's not the works that save you, but it's hard to say someone is sorry if they don't seem, y'know, sorry.

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

May I tempt you with some delicious devils-food cake?

I'll take some Baal bread, that stuff's great.

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

It's not the works that save you, but it's hard to say someone is sorry if they don't seem, y'know, sorry.

A christian has both faith and works.

[Orange Wizard]

That's what I said

[BorkBorkGoesTheCode]

That's what I said

I am not arguing.