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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[origamiscienceguy]

Why did Satan sin?

Wasn't he originally in Heaven? If there was/is no temptation to sin in Heaven, why did Lucifer break away from God?

And if all Heaven does to 'purify' you, so to speak, is freedom from temptation, and even the original creations of God could be tempted, is the only thing that makes one good that one is not exposed to temptation?

I suppose another way to put it; if Human sin stems from Adam and Eve, and their sin came from Lucifer's temptation, who tempted Lucifer?

Also, less relevant, why did God leave that tree lying about in the first place? Or allow Lucifer to taint his creations/garden? If he's Omniscient, he would have known what would happen.

I do not know why Satan sinned, I'll do some research and get back to you on that. About the tree, God put it in the garden so we would have free will. I assume that there will be similar things in heaven, but there will be no temptation to sin. So we still have free will. If that makes sense.

[Teneb]

Okay so, if god put the tree there to allow for free will, and can remove the desire to sin without also removing free will... why does he wait for people to be in heaven before doing so? What's stopping him from just doing it for living people too?

Though I guess there is no answer to that since I highly doubt anyone but the most self-deluded would think they know what a divine entity thinks.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm just gonna add that the Serpent is not identified as Lucifer or Satan, who are also both identified as different entities (the lightbringer and the accuser). Also, the story of a fallen angel being responsible for hell and its demons is from Dante, not from any actual biblical story.

[origamiscienceguy]

I'm just gonna add that the Serpent is not identified as Lucifer or Satan, who are also both identified as different entities (the lightbringer and the accuser). Also, the story of a fallen angel being responsible for hell and its demons is from Dante, not from any actual biblical story.

I have never head something like this. Can you give a source?

[Orange Wizard]

Well, Lucifer is mentioned in... the Psalms? Ezekiel? Somewhere around there. But he's not related to Satan, and is in fact a rather innocuous king.
The serpent in Eden is pretty obviously supposed to be Allegory Satan, unless you're being intentionally obtuse about it.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I'm just gonna add that the Serpent is not identified as Lucifer or Satan, who are also both identified as different entities (the lightbringer and the accuser). Also, the story of a fallen angel being responsible for hell and its demons is from Dante, not from any actual biblical story.

I have never head something like this. Can you give a source?

OW cited Lucifer already, and Satan is in Job, where he's never identified as a fallen being and is in fact in heaven with God. This is because in the lore of the time "Satan" was not a demon but one of God's angels who was given the task of prosecuting humans for their sins. This is why God asks Satan to consider Job, and Satan takes the position that Job for all his virtue only worships God because of the blessings he has garnered, and has no selfless faith at all.

As for the Serpent, open Genesis and look for yourself, you will find no textual reference that the Serpent is linked to either of these titles. As for the position that it is an allegory of the devil figure, it may be but I am not wholly convinced. The Serpent is specifically cursed during the Fall to lose its legs (also the Serpent had legs) and writhe upon the ground in much the same way that many other origin myths explain the reasons the world is the way it is, in this case why snakes have no limbs.

[Orange Wizard]

I hate using Revelation as a reference, but Paul explicitly describes Satan as the Serpent, and also mentions a war in Heaven after which Satan is cast down to Earth.
There's also a bunch of passages in the Epistles AFAIK that make the connection Serpent to Satan.

...

If you're still not convinced, how about some textual references from Genesis? God says to the serpent in Genesis 3:
"I will put enmity between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
    and you shall bruise his heel."
Anyone who isn't really going out of their way to be obnoxious can see the connection to Christ and the devil there.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

I hate using Revelation as a reference, but Paul explicitly describes Satan as the Serpent, and also mentions a war in Heaven after which Satan is cast down to Earth.

Full preterism ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°) and yeah, but Revelation was written in what was probably a drugged up haze quite a while after the others. I am, perhaps, suspicious that Revelation is even more fanfiction than the rest of the Bible.

...

If you're still not convinced, how about some textual references from Genesis? God says to the serpent in Genesis 3:
"I will put enmity between you and the woman,
    and between your offspring and her offspring;
he shall bruise your head,
    and you shall bruise his heel."
Anyone who isn't really going out of their way to be obnoxious can see the connection to Christ and the devil there.

Or it's just about the conflict between humanity and nature. I don't think that's going out of the way to be obnoxious, Genesis is very much a poetic origin story of why the world is the way it is in the same vein as other cultures'. Right before this it goes into why women suffer in menstruation and childbirth while men suffer in labor, why death exists, and afterwards eventually describes the origin of murder.

[Orange Wizard]

Revelation is basically the same as all the other prophetic books, except it's foretelling stuff that hasn't happened yet.

[Rolepgeek]

I also want to bring up that while I get the idea that it's totally women's fault now for something the first woman did several thousand years ago, and they should continue to be treated and acknowledge as being made to serve men, what with the whole 'Eve committed the first sin' and 'women are temptresses' and 'Punish the son for the sins of the father, even seven generations down'(though that makes me wonder, if, in a way, God was actually self-flagellating through Jesus since he felt bad about all the people he killed in the Old Testament, but that's another matter), but, I mean...

Yeah I'm not sure I really get why there's so much contrast between, say, Galatians 3:28, and 1 Timothy 2:11-15? And what about all the people who weren't the descendants of Abraham? Are they just sorta boned, or what?

I get I'm not being quite as eloquent as before, but I kinda went over the eloquent questions, and at this point I'm just trying to figure out how to reconcile the bits of the bible that, I'll just say it plainly, are in my view immoral.

[wierd]

You will find this in basically every religious creed.

Group that follows the creed believes that by following that creed, they are special.
Being so special, they get special treatment by the divine.

News at 11.


(Note, you will even find it in NON religious creeds.)

The older the religious creed, the more likely that you are will find this little tidbit in a prominent location.

[penguinofhonor]

Lucifer is a translation error, actually. I'm pretty sure you'll only find him mentioned in KJV-based versions of the Bible.

[Orange Wizard]

I also want to bring up that while I get the idea that it's totally women's fault now for something the first woman did several thousand years ago

99% of churches will tell you that it's equally the fault of both Adam and Eve, to avoid exactly this scenario. Eve for taking the fruit in the first place, Adam for going along with it.
That said, there's still a fair bit of stuff about the roles of men vs. women in the Bible, but I don't really want to get into that.

...

Lucifer is a translation error, actually. I'm pretty sure you'll only find him mentioned in KJV-based versions of the Bible.

Yeah, true. Supposed to be "morning star" or somesuch. We've discussed it in the thread a fair bit but I can't really remember all too much.

[Frumple]

Mmhmm. Was morning star (also known as venus :V), then got corrupted over time from the... greek translation, iirc. It mostly just sounds fancy, really. Probably doesn't hurt it's fairly close to the angelic -el naming pattern -- fits with the fallen angel bit that's of questionable dubiousness.

Honestly, none of the appellations for the adversary are actual names. Critter's never given an actual name in the biblical texts. Satan's a translation corruption, lucifer's a translation corruption, the list more or less just goes on. It's vaguely amusing, really, given how much personality et al non-canonical sources and common interpretations and whatnot give the thing(s)...

[Adragis]

the angelic -el naming pattern

Isambard Kingdom Brunel for being an angel confirmed.
I KNEW the Channel Tunnel was kept up by faith!