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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 663957 times)

Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2820 on: August 06, 2015, 11:08:54 pm »

and it's extremely vague, with no clear mention to a fallen angel or heavenly rebellion ( the hints to the "Morning star" attributed to Satan are, quite clearly, the mocking of an humane babylonian king ). In the medieval ages, Satan was ridiculed as a stupid, goat faced villain and not taken really seriously untill the Reform.
What about the Book of Revelation?
And... Genesis.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2821 on: August 06, 2015, 11:16:19 pm »

And there's also the Book Of Job, in which Satan, though not depicted as being opposed to god, is still nonetheless depicted as an enormous asshole
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Arcvasti

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2822 on: August 06, 2015, 11:21:11 pm »

and it's extremely vague, with no clear mention to a fallen angel or heavenly rebellion ( the hints to the "Morning star" attributed to Satan are, quite clearly, the mocking of an humane babylonian king ). In the medieval ages, Satan was ridiculed as a stupid, goat faced villain and not taken really seriously untill the Reform.

What about the Book of Revelation?

Revelation, even among Christians, is dubiously canon[Apocryphal is probably the exact right word here]. Essentially,this one guy around Jesus' time says God revealed stuff to him in the form of some weird acid trip thing. I wouldn't use it as a citation. Not that this is a Biblically unprecedented format, but I'd take it with a pillar of salt.



Most mentions of what we would call "Satan" in the Bible speak of a tempter, a twister of words. The dragon in the Garden of Eden, the temptation of Jesus in the desert and his appearance in Job mostly adhere to the same character: A voice that incites division and hatred, but does not act. Whether this entity is even an entity or is merely an symbol of temptation and such is ambiguous. The Apocrypha, from my limited knowledge of them, have a more explicit Adversary figure named Aza-somethingorother. Since this is[Obviously], an apocryphal source with which I'm mostly unfamiliar, I have no idea of the character or motivations of Azawhatsit at all.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2823 on: August 06, 2015, 11:35:22 pm »

I'm pretty sure The Apocalypse is canon under all major denominations
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2824 on: August 07, 2015, 01:16:06 am »

Te "end times"/second coming certainly is, but as to wat form tat takes most people just srug and say "dunno, we're not told, but I like to tink it's X".
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2825 on: August 07, 2015, 04:59:39 am »

Yea, my keyboard is broken.
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Conradine

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2826 on: August 07, 2015, 06:14:30 am »

Quote
What about the Book of Revelation?


New textament. I said that the idea of personal Satan is missing in the Old textament.


Quote
And there's also the Book Of Job, in which Satan, though not depicted as being opposed to god, is still nonetheless depicted as an enormous asshole

In the Book of Job, the word "satan" is used as title /role that means "accuser / prosecutor". "angel" means "instrument of YHWH", and is used to indicate both people and events. No trace of a personal devil here.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2015, 06:17:56 am by Conradine »
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2827 on: August 07, 2015, 04:58:48 pm »

Te "end times"/second coming certainly is, but as to wat form tat takes most people just srug and say "dunno, we're not told, but I like to tink it's X".

I meant "The Apocalypse" as in "The Book of Revelations". The book goes by both titles.
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Salsacookies

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2828 on: August 09, 2015, 01:34:15 am »

I read on the subject of vegetarianism, and I'd like to comment on that, even though I'm late to the subject. Not trying to say being a vegetarian is bad, btw, just an opinion of mine.

I believe vegetables get a way worse fate than animals ever will. They are living creatures, like animals, but they can't move and have limited responses to stimuli. When we decide to grow veggies, and harvest them, what we generally do is Amputate pieces of a living creature and wait until it grows more, then we amputate more parts. Repeat about twice a month, and we are pretty much torturing a defenseless piece of greenery that can do nothing to defend itself, all because we can't see it reacting negatively because it cannot do anything but stand there and grow.

I just don't see a way to live without killing another thing. Everything else kills each other, and even herbivores eat meat when convenient. We aren't being cruel by trying to live, it's just how nature works unfortunately. As omnivores, we can eat however we want. Either way, something's being hurt, however. There's no pain free option.
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Frumple

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2829 on: August 09, 2015, 02:00:36 am »

... there's plenty of pain free options. Fair amount of the world's biomass doesn't have a nervous system developed enough to feel pain. They react to stimulus and whatnot, but actually hurt, in the way more developed things do? Nope. Takes a certain amount of neurological development for that particular physiological phenomena to start showing up.

And hell, if it's really a problem for yeh, just stick to plants (or I guess animals, since there are... some. Generally stuff our systems don't react to well to hosting, though, beyond the bacterial level of things) that require being eaten to reproduce. Then you're just helping them along.
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Adragis

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2830 on: August 09, 2015, 02:03:20 am »

Most things react to stimuli, anyway, so it's no proof of sapience or even sentience.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2831 on: August 09, 2015, 02:11:21 am »

... Can't think of anything else to discuss concerning my argument, I'll just leave it there for you to pick at I guess. Not really sure if I regret putting that up or not. Just a counter argument I thought of to go against the idea of vegetarianism being harmless. I'm just gonna see what you say about it.
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Frumple

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2832 on: August 09, 2015, 02:33:46 am »

This probably isn't really the place to discuss the particulars of vegetarianism, yeah. It's not exactly a religion, though it's part of some (as per the gates mentioned above).

Still, it mostly depends on how you define harm. It's certainly painless (for the plants -- less so for the animals that end up dead to clear farmland et al), because (any known, anyway) plants are incapable of feeling pain, just like most insects, certain sea-dwelling macro-organisms, etc., etc. Pain is a fairly well defined phenomena from a physiological perspective, last I paid attention to that sort of thing.

And it's hard to say damage is really a fair qualifier -- there's plants that have to catch fire to continue their lifecycle, and many that have being eaten (sometimes to the death, iirc) in a similar position. Plus there's plenty of cases where damage is not harm -- see human exercise, ferex. Even straight up individual plant destruction is somewhat difficult to support as being substantially harmful -- plants that aren't kept to a stable population can and will end up driving themselves to extinction, and often times killing specific (diseased, ferex) plants is both relatively good for the plant itself (less net damage, same end results), and substantially good for every other of its kind in the vicinity.

Unthinking, short-sighted vegetarianism -- the sort that ends up driving animals and plants to extinction (aka agriculture :P) -- can definitely be harmful, though. Rub to that is that that's not really saying much. Unthinking, short-sighted just-about-anything can be harmful, heh. On the other hand, you could almost certainly run a vegetarian system that's a full on net good (i.e. net reduction of harm compared to an undisturbed system, by the heuristic being used), for the people subsisting off it, for the general plant population involved, for most individual plants included, for the associated fauna biosphere, and so on, and so forth. Might even be possible to manage that with a non-vegetarian food production system, if difficult and sub-par -- the right kind of suffering makes the meat taste better ♫

---

As for the 3D printing, obviously the resources for it are going to have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is almost certainly going to be reached by climbing over the corpses of mass populations of animals and plants. I'd almost wager that reliable, fully effective, non-animal replacements for meat will be the last death knell for most of the animal world. When we don't even care enough to keep them around to eat, we're going to expend significantly less effort keeping many (or any) of them around :V
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2833 on: August 09, 2015, 06:40:36 am »

I think pain as we experience it is well-defined, and we can assume animals with similar nervous systems experience it similarly. But other organisms' reactions to being harmed are poorly defined, and it is a much bigger assumption to say that they don't suffer.

Until recently, it was the scientific consensus that crustaceans couldn't feel pain. Newer research suggests that was probably incorrect, but we aren't completely sure. We don't have a definite answer here, and when we thought we had one, we were wrong. Knowing that, how can we be so sure plants don't suffer when harmed? Their experience of the world is even more alien and incomprehensible to us.
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TD1

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2834 on: August 09, 2015, 06:47:32 am »

They have a localised reaction to the damage, e.g. secreting sap, etc. However, this is most likely all - they don't have a central processor where they can feel the pain, and even if they did no communication channels to get it there.
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