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What's your opinion on free will?

I am religious and believe in free will
- 71 (27.7%)
I am religious and do not believe in free will
- 10 (3.9%)
I am not religious and believe in free will
- 114 (44.5%)
I am not religious and do not believe in free will
- 61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251


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Author Topic: Railgun and Spirituality Discussion  (Read 681618 times)

Arx

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2805 on: August 06, 2015, 12:01:30 am »

Except that those have very little to do with Biblical (and fanfiction) Satan, apart from the self-determination thing.

Next questions:
a) what body of knowledge is this drawn from? Is it all the Siamese monkns teaching, or influenced by LaVey, or what?
b) Do you believe in God (since clearly you believe in hell)?
c) Why do you refer to Satan as 'unholy', given that the goals you strive for fall exactly in line with the Western (and Christian) concept of goodness, holiness, and/or purity?
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2806 on: August 06, 2015, 12:03:09 am »

Is the Enlightened Darkness in San Francisco???
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Frumple

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2807 on: August 06, 2015, 12:33:53 am »

Except that those have very little to do with Biblical (and fanfiction) Satan, apart from the self-determination thing.
Well, fanfiction no, but biblical... well, do remember the bible doesn't really say much about satan, other than it (assuming the biblical satan is even a singular being) occasionally trying to tempt people away from its pappy. Those are about as in line with that as anything. The fanfiction is significantly more explicit, for what it's worth.

Quote
c) Why do you refer to Satan as 'unholy', given that the goals you strive for fall exactly in line with the western (and christian) concept of goodness, holiness, and/or purity?
The devil (heh) is in the details, arx. Each of those gates have something in them that, while broadly speaking in line with what western traditions may consider good, are explicitly contrary to what many western traditions -- especially christianity -- consider holy. And there's often a helluva' difference between those two.

As the example, christianity has a strong message disdaining personal responsibility to any fundamental degree (forgiveness, god's will), encourages what satanism (so far as I'm aware) would consider disordinate passions (such as holy fervor), barely gives a damn about intoxicating substances (alcohol, in particular, is broadly speaking A-Okay), is perfectly okay with harming others under many conditions, encourages or allows many of the forbidden occupations (particularly the animal slaughter bit), encourages divisive speech (proselytizing), has desire for (god's) recognition as what amounts to a core tenant of its beliefs, and considers the ultimate goal to be the acquiring of an external good (god's blessing/salvation, which cannot come from the self). Many other western traditions are... well, of a similar nature. The gates are considered unholy because they're contrary to what is considered holy, more or less, so far as I understand things.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2808 on: August 06, 2015, 12:45:56 am »

Pretty much all the left-hand paths glorify the idea of unholiness as an expression of rebellion, be that the literal affirmation of Lucifer's defection from a totalitarian god or the symbolic placement of the self over conventional society.
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Conradine

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2809 on: August 06, 2015, 02:54:52 am »

Quote
Next questions:
a) what body of knowledge is this drawn from? Is it all the Siamese monkns teaching, or influenced by LaVey, or what?
b) Do you believe in God (since clearly you believe in hell)?
c) Why do you refer to Satan as 'unholy', given that the goals you strive for fall exactly in line with the Western (and Christian) concept of goodness, holiness, and/or purity?


It's a long and weird, although inspirating, story. Our founder brought much of the Theravada teachings with him when he left Siam, but his life philosphy different significantly in several crucial aspect. One of them is that we don't think at the world as an illusion or projection, neither approve a passive acceptation of suffering. Instead, we focus a lot on preventing the suffering, using every tool that science, technology, spirituality and experience could gave us.

We do not believe in any kind of creative or omnipotent deity; also, for us, Hell is a state of mind ( that we try to achieve ).

We do not try to achieve a state of holyness; quite the opposite, we strive to give up the notion that humans are superior to animals, or that an human being can reach a condition of spiritual superiority toward another human being, or another living being at all. The enlightened darkness brings cessation of sufference and inner serenity, it's not an excuse to put oneself on a pedestal.

Also, a big difference with western christianity is that we believe that animals has the same right to live as us. Althought we admit self defense ( to not defend your life is to disrespect it ).



About question c, there are really many difference between our goals and those of a christian, but it could be resumed in one concept: personal responsability. In christianity, the burden of sin and the work of spiritual purification is shifted to the Savior; in the Path of Eight Gates, both work and consequences are upon the Acolyte.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2015, 03:01:37 am by Conradine »
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Adragis

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2810 on: August 06, 2015, 03:07:12 am »

Seems like a fairly legit and groovy set of philosophies, just associated with, y'know, Satan.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2811 on: August 06, 2015, 07:24:30 am »

Modern satanism is just a bunch of syncretism with satan instead of god anyway :v
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2812 on: August 06, 2015, 08:59:19 am »

It sounds kind of like gnosticism (a denomination which posits, among many other things, that somewhere along the line god and the devil got switched around in religious thought)
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Arx

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2813 on: August 06, 2015, 01:40:15 pm »

Well, fanfiction no, but biblical... well, do remember the bible doesn't really say much about satan, other than it (assuming the biblical satan is even a singular being) occasionally trying to tempt people away from its pappy.

And being aligned with the demons, which basically don't seem to do anything except make life as terrible as possible for some poor sods. It's also kind of implied in 1 John that he/she/it is the embodiment of everything wrong with the world, not in the sense of teh gayz, but in the sense of bone cancer in six year olds. Which is part of why I'm quizzing Conradine like this, because presumably they don't worship Satan as represented in the Bible, because I doubt any reasonable person likes cancer in kids.

The devil (heh) is in the details, arx. Each of those gates have something in them that, while broadly speaking in line with what western traditions may consider good, are explicitly contrary to what many western traditions -- especially christianity -- consider holy.

As the example, christianity has a strong message disdaining personal responsibility to any fundamental degree (forgiveness, god's will),

"For faith without deeds is dead."
"It would be better for a millstone to be tied around their neck and for them to be thrown into the sea than for them to cause the least of these little ones to stumble."

Sort of. The thing most people forget about is that if you're not doing your absolute level best to not sin, you're screwing up on a slightly more abstract faith-based level.

Quote
encourages what satanism (so far as I'm aware) would consider disordinate passions (such as holy fervor)

I guess? It's not one of the defining features of Christianity, though - frothing is generally a better indicator of doing something wrong than right.

Quote
barely gives a damn about intoxicating substances (alcohol, in particular, is broadly speaking A-Okay)

Just because Satanism requires more asceticism doesn't mean it can't align with Christian values.

Quote
is perfectly okay with harming others under many conditions

I've probably made myself clear on this point before, but it's entirely possible to interpret Christianity such that the only time it is ever remotely acceptable to harm a believer or non-believer is when leaving them unharmed would have a definite negative effect on other believers or non-believers, in which case you can make the same argument under Satanism for non-pacifism.

Quote
encourages or allows many of the forbidden occupations (particularly the animal slaughter bit)

The only ones you can really interpret Christianity as supporting are the ones about the arms industry (if you take a slightly contorted approach) and the slaughtering industry. But again, just because it's more ascetic doesn't take it out of line.

Quote
encourages divisive speech (proselytizing)

You can make a strong case that if your proselytism is divisive you're doing it wrong, but I'll concede that point.

Quote
has desire for (god's) recognition as what amounts to a core tenant of its beliefs

But completely rejects egoism and narcissistic habits, and requires that you keep your good deeds completely concealed. To a certain extent though, yeah.


Quote
and considers the ultimate goal to be the acquiring of an external good (god's blessing/salvation, which cannot come from the self).

Fair point.

Quote
Many other western traditions are... well, of a similar nature. The gates are considered unholy because they're contrary to what is considered holy, more or less, so far as I understand things.

The only actual contrary thing is the ultimate goal being from within/without, though. Asceticism is pretty commonly a holy goal, and that's basically what the gates are, just progressively.

It's a long and weird, although inspirating, story. Our founder brought much of the Theravada teachings with him when he left Siam, but his life philosphy different significantly in several crucial aspect. One of them is that we don't think at the world as an illusion or projection, neither approve a passive acceptation of suffering. Instead, we focus a lot on preventing the suffering, using every tool that science, technology, spirituality and experience could gave us.

Is that life philosophy actually recorded somewhere, though? I assume it must be, since I doubt you keep the text of the eight gates (point of respect: would you rather I capitalised those? Wouldn't like to offend) exactly memorised.


Quote
We do not believe in any kind of creative or omnipotent deity; also, for us, Hell is a state of mind ( that we try to achieve ).

...so this actually has nothing to do with Satan except in name?

Quote
We do not try to achieve a state of holyness; quite the opposite, we strive to give up the notion that humans are superior to animals, or that an human being can reach a condition of spiritual superiority toward another human being, or another living being at all. The enlightened darkness brings cessation of sufference and inner serenity, it's not an excuse to put oneself on a pedestal.

Apart from the part about animals, this is more ore less what Christians believe, though. It's mentioned more than once that unless you are literally the Second Coming of the Christ you are in no position to judge anyone.

Quote
Also, a big difference with western christianity is that we believe that animals has the same right to live as us. Althought we admit self defense ( to not defend your life is to disrespect it ).

Interesting. I kind of expected that second distinction, but less so the first.

Quote
About question c, there are really many difference between our goals and those of a christian, but it could be resumed in one concept: personal responsability. In christianity, the burden of sin and the work of spiritual purification is shifted to the Savior; in the Path of Eight Gates, both work and consequences are upon the Acolyte.

I see. That makes sense, although I think people tend to remember the grace in Christianity and forget the faith and its implications.
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Conradine

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2814 on: August 06, 2015, 04:54:07 pm »

Quote
because I doubt any reasonable person likes cancer in kids

Well, not even in adults.
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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2815 on: August 06, 2015, 04:55:42 pm »

Seems like a fairly legit and groovy set of philosophies, just associated with, y'know, Satan.
Pft, they're not sacrificing hobos in detroit - they're not legit Satanists. No true Satanist.

Orange Wizard

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2816 on: August 06, 2015, 05:01:36 pm »

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because I doubt any reasonable person likes cancer in kids
Well, not even in adults.
It is, however, acceptable in babies and the elderly.
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Conradine

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2817 on: August 06, 2015, 05:18:44 pm »

We have no holy text if is what you meant. The founder wrote several diaries, some of them passed to his disciples, and for the most taught orally. I wrote down some of the teaching of my father's master, and even recorded some of the conversation with my dad, but it's quite unformal. We also study some of the books that the founder studied, about Hermeticism and Ceremonial Magick, books on theravada doctrine - both ancient and modern, but the main focus is on the inspirational tales of the life of the founder.
Mabye, one hundred years from now, someone will take the confused and sometimes contradictory notes we put down and patch them together in an holy book, who knows.

The concise exposition of the Eight Gates is memorized, yes. ^^
But I also wrote it down.


Quote
...so this actually has nothing to do with Satan except in name?

The idea of Satan as archetipe of rejection of holiness and self-determination in achieving freedom comes from Aleister Crowley and Anton LaVey's philosphy. Our notion of freedom, although, is quite different. It's freedom from suffering, not freedom to indulge in passion ( that is not real freedom because it comes with pain ).

About biblical satan? Well, in the bible, "satan" means simply "adversary" and it's not a name, but a role that is played by several actors. The idea of Satan as a personal temptator appear only in the New Textament - and it's extremely vague, with no clear mention to a fallen angel or heavenly rebellion ( the hints to the "Morning star" attributed to Satan are, quite clearly, the mocking of an humane babylonian king ). In the medieval ages, Satan was ridiculed as a stupid, goat faced villain and not taken really seriously untill the Reform. I can say that the modern picture of Satan is not older than 4-5 centuries.


Also our picture of Satan is a construct. If it's not clear, we are basically atheists. The rituality is a pragmatical use of mental pratices. Demons do not really exist as phisical ( or even immaterial ) entities.
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Bohandas

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2818 on: August 06, 2015, 10:42:34 pm »

and it's extremely vague, with no clear mention to a fallen angel or heavenly rebellion ( the hints to the "Morning star" attributed to Satan are, quite clearly, the mocking of an humane babylonian king ). In the medieval ages, Satan was ridiculed as a stupid, goat faced villain and not taken really seriously untill the Reform.

What about the Book of Revelation?
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TempAcc

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Re: Religion and Spirituality Discussion: God-Proof Chariots Edition
« Reply #2819 on: August 06, 2015, 11:07:23 pm »

Most references to satan in the bible are foggy and can even be the results of mistranlations. Modern satanism adopts the modern romantical figure of satan, specially as he was depicted in Paradise Lost. There's a good chance Lucifer and Satan may not actualy be names of the same being, and the oldest texts always preferred to say "adversary" than mentioning a name or another, which makes it even harder to define just what the hell satan was supposed to be originally, or even if he's a figure that originated with christianity and didn't end up being (accidentaly or intentionally) created later due to translations and the greek influence on the biblical texts.

"Morning Star" IE "luficer" is a name/word thats actualy used with some frequency in the bible. Hell, Jesus himself refers to himself as this in some translations in the book of revelations. I actualy need to find the exact quote, though. The only specifically attributed use of satan to refer a being happens exactly once in the bible, in Isaiah 14:12 (King James), and its done in a poetic way, making a comparison to babylon's impending fall. Then there's Job 38 (revised standard catholic) in which the term is used yet again, but apparently not referring to any being in particular.

Satan is never actualy equated to Luficer in the bible, thats a post biblical interpretation thats shady at best. The interpretation that lucifer was satan's name/title before his fall is, again, a post biblical interpretation that stuck on.
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