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I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[That Wolf]

Its autumn and I agree. It is euphoric.
The church on my street has its doors closed most of the time.
Its a shit neighbourhood.

A km away there is a church with no windows, a bus and a large fence surrounding it.

I think its a vampire church
Or demon worshipers, they do own land that goats live on..

They are pretty rich so the lack of windows could mean they have a drugs operation going on?
The bus could be used to smuggle the drugs and move the cartel about.
I was neighbors with some members once, evil people. They had a lovely garden and kind smiles, helpful people, kept to themselves... just another family of gangsters and lowlifes trying to blend in.
Oh gosh, what is in the egg sandwiches that you get from caterers? I have them at funerals all the time.
Oh my armok they are to die for. I last had them at grandads funeral. Yum, I hoard them all and pretend im greaving and as if I need them.
Its clearly bullshit because I just love the eggs.
I should know whats in them Im a cook.
Ahh ignorance is bliss.....

[Rolan7]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weihberg

So Naziism is a religion?

Edit: any form of government at all, even. And love, infatuation, and anger.

... Naziism was based on antisemitism, which is a direct result of Christianity.  Nazi Germany was overtly Christian, and the Catholic Church at the time supported it.  Yeah, the *actual* reasons were political (and sadistic), but Christianity was one of the primary tools used to paint Jews as the "bad guys", and get decent people to "defend themselves" against the insidious threat.

Of course (most) Christians today will insist that the Nazis weren't real Christians.  The antisemetic passages of the Bible go relatively ignored, for now, since we have a fine "enemy" in Islam.  But the passages are there, just waiting to provide someone with an excuse.

(A lot of Christians don't even acknowledge that the Nazis *used* religion, they just lump it in with the USSR as an example of atheism gone amok.  Which is so wrong it's funny-sad.)

That said, the original quote isn't accurate.  Most any sort of idealism can be twisted to evil ends.  It just happens with religions so much because they're widespread, usually designed to support holy war, and often controlled by small groups of interpreters.

[Arx]

The antisemetic passages of the Bible go relatively ignored, for now, since we have a fine "enemy" in Islam.  But the passages are there, just waiting to provide someone with an excuse.

Such as?

[Frumple]

Couldn't cite you the precise passages at the moment, but there's a good handful in both the new and old testament that spends a bit of time demonizing various jewish groups. As has been noted by historians, and what will be readily ignored by anti-semites using the bible to support their hate, is that that sort of thing was a fairly standard jewish/early chrisitian literary technique. Have current (relative the time written, anyway) jews be terrible beast-things or whatev', so that the new message (and probably god) can come in and smite everything and then yay everything is good again with the righteous living rightfully by the right message (which is the one the work's author is pushing, of course) and the unrighteous probably having their pregnant women rent to pieces or somethin'. Pretty clumsy story design, but hey, history.

[Rolan7]

A big single one is Matthew 27, where the Jews and their descendants take responsibility for Jesus's death:

27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

There are several verses about the disciples getting persecuted by the Jews, but that's understandable since it probably actually happened.  The above verse is different because it's specifically blaming all future Jews for Jesus's death, supposedly of their own volition, which is why it was used a lot to justify antisemitism.  Even though it *really* looks like sockpuppeting.

Titus has some specific complaints as well:

1:10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.

He's not saying Jews are greedy deceivers.  But he's sure implying it hard.

And here, Jews are "contrary to all men".  But don't worry, they'll get what's coming to them:

2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

I just kinda paraphrased this from the first search result for "anti semitic bible verses", which does a better job than I, and discusses some of the history of antisemitism (which I know little about).
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/daylightatheism/2009/07/new-testament-anti-semitism/

Some interesting bits:
Medieval Jews were accused of "host nailing", driving nails into communion wafers.
Martin Luther wrote a book suggesting Judaism should be abolished and Jews sent to forced labor.  Hmmm.
Revelations 3:9 (for what it's worth) speaks of false Jews who are actually the "synagogue of Satan".  Which doesn't really support my point, probably, Revelations is just fun.

[Arx]

Huh, interesting. Thank you. You can strike Nazism from my list, then.

[Rolan7]

Huh, interesting. Thank you. You can strike Nazism from my list, then.

No problem!  And again, yeah, the pithy quote isn't accurate.  A lot of ideals get subverted for evil, not just religious ones.

[Bohandas]

A big single one is Matthew 27, where the Jews and their descendants take responsibility for Jesus's death:

27:24 When Pilate saw that he could prevail nothing, but that rather a tumult was made, he took water, and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, I am innocent of the blood of this just person: see ye to it.
27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

There are several verses about the disciples getting persecuted by the Jews, but that's understandable since it probably actually happened.  The above verse is different because it's specifically blaming all future Jews for Jesus's death, supposedly of their own volition, which is why it was used a lot to justify antisemitism.  Even though it *really* looks like sockpuppeting.

It doesn't really matter either way though because it wouldn't matter even if they did say it. You can't admit to something and then transfer the blame to someone else, especially not someone else who isn't even born yet and therefore could not possibly be complicit; blameworthiness simply doesn't work that way.

Furthermore, a bunch of nobodies who died 2000 years ago are less than worthless as character witnesses for people alive today.

What it boils down to is that those particular jews are no longer alive and no longer relevant.

CONTROVERSIAL EDIT:
On a related note, this is also why there shouldn't be reparations for slavery. Everyone who legally owned slaves and/or was complicit to that systsm (as well as everyone who was legally owned as a slave and was directly victimized by that system) is long since dead; even if they were born during the civil war and lived to be 122 years old they would have died during the 1980's

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weihberg

So Naziism is a religion?

The Thule Society arguably is

[Descan]

On a related note, this is also why there shouldn't be reparations for slavery. Everyone who legally owned slaves and/or was complicit to that systsm (as well as everyone who was legally owned as a slave and was directly victimized by that system) is long since dead; even if they were born during the civil war and lived to be 122 years old they would have died during the 1980's

Reparations isn't about quid pro quo, and saying it is is misrepresentative. It's about the fact that slavery had a negative impact on the economic outlook and prospects of African Americans that *still exists* today. As in, the average black person today, especially someone who's ancestors were slaves, is worse off than the average white person. And it's pretty obvious why. After slavery was abolished, black people were pretty much told "Alright, you're free now. Go us, we're awesome. Go do whatever," so they didn't have any resources to make their way in life to prosperity. Despite actually being promised some resources to get started, they didn't get any. And it's kind of hard to give your kids a good life if you can't afford it, and they won't be able to give THEIR kids a good life because they couldn't afford it either, and so on down the line. It's like the reverse of inherited plutocracy. Add in racism, especially before 1980s when it wasn't as frowned upon, and even if you WERE an educated black man (or woman), and you were very hard pressed to get a good job, and get paid good money for your work.

Indirect victims are still victims.

[Orange Wizard]

That's not really relevant to the thread.

[ChairmanPoo]

So, curious: Would you sacrifice yourself for your deity of choice if it was it's will?

[Helgoland]

I apologise in advance for the language towards the end, but I'm pretty fucking pissed right now.

... Naziism was based on antisemitism,

[CITATION NEEDED]
Anti-semitism played a huge role in the ideology of the NSDAP, but 'based on' is plain wrong. Wrongly simplifying like this does a great disservice to the cause of never letting their likes come to power again.

which is a direct result of Christianity.

[CITATION NEEDED]
There have been many places and many times in which Christians lived without (overly great) anti-semitism, and conversely there have been lots of times and lots of places with plenty of anti-semitism but little to no Christians around.

Nazi Germany was overtly Christian,

[CITATION NEEDED]
Sure, they publicly said stuff like this, and there certainly were fucknuts like these, but National Socialism in itself was hostile to Christianity:

Spoiler:  From the Wiki article 'Religion in Nazi Germany' (click to show/hide)

There was some diversity of personal views among the Nazi leadership as to the future of religion in Germany. Anti-Church radicals included Hitler's Personal Secretary Martin Bormann and Minister for Propaganda Joseph Goebbels, the neo-pagan official Nazi Philosopher Alfred Rosenberg and security chief Heinrich Himmler. Some Nazis, such as Hans Kerrl, who served as Hitler's Minister for Church Affairs, believed Christianity could be Nazified into "Positive Christianity", by renouncing its Jewish origins, the Old Testament and Apostle's Creed, and holding Hitler as a new "Messiah". Hitler himself believed that in the long run, National Socialism and religion would not be able to co-exist, but was prepared temporarily to restrain some of his more radical instincts out of political considerations.

Under the Gleichschaltung process, Hitler attempted to create a unified Protestant Reich Church from Germany's 28 existing Protestant churches. The plan failed, and was resisted by the Confessing Church. Persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany followed the Nazi takeover. Hitler moved quickly to eliminate political catholicism. Amid harassment of the Church, the Reich concordat treaty with the Vatican was signed in 1933, and promised to respect Church autonomy. Hitler routinely disregarded the Concordat, closing all Catholic institutions whose functions were not strictly religious. Clergy, nuns, and lay leaders were targeted, with thousands of arrests over the ensuing years. The Church accused the regime of "fundamental hostility to Christ and his Church".

and the Catholic Church at the time supported it.

[CITATION FUCKING NEEDED]
I'll stay silent about many things, but I won't let you blatantly insult one of my few personal heroes and the people of my native region without giving you a piece of my mind. Not only is that statement flat out wrong, but it spits on the grave of the one man the Nazis were afraid to eliminate and on the memory of the one successful act of German civil resistance against the Nazis. Clemens August Graf von Galen, bishop of the Catholic Church, prevented the Nazis from conducting Aktion T4, the murder of those with mental or physical disabilities (such as myself, I might add), in the Münster region. He had such popular support that the Nazis feared an uprising if they acted against him, and after the war he even bemoaned that he had been denied 'the martyr's crown'.
And oh hey look, there's an ENTIRE FUCKING WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE ON THE SUBJECT! Do some research before talking about of your ass like that.

EDIT: And let's not forget the Bekennende Kirche, especially Dietrich Bonhoeffer - it's not like the Protestant Church was monolithically supportive of the NSDAP rule, either. Oh, and the Catholic Church in Poland at the time. In fact, the Dachau concentration camp had a whole section just for priests.

On the other hand, let's not forget that Luther himself was a rabid anti-semite even by contemporary standards and had a great influence on modern German anti-semitism. Probably the second-worst German in history, right after Wilhelm II. (Remember, Hitler was Austrian.

[penguinofhonor]

.

[Rolan7]

I did simplify a lot, granted.

I guess it'd be more accurate to say that the Nazi party was based on totalitarianism and racial purity.  Jews were not the only victims.  Blacks and homosexuals were also targeted, as were political dissidents (especially communists).
... However, Jews were singled out, especially in the rhetoric.  I think we agree that "antisemitism played a huge role".

I will stand by my statement that antisemitism is a direct result of Christianity.  I already provided citations from the Bible, barely even going into the widespead constant persecution Jews have suffered in Christian states throughout history.
Yes, there have been places and situations where Christians didn't persecute Jews, especially in the present day.  The persecution hasn't been literally constant. 
It's true that there have been non-Christian groups who also persecuted Jews (mainly the other Abrahamic religion, Islam), so I was wrong to imply that antisemitism is *solely* a result of Christianity.  It still does result, directly, from Christianity.

As for Nazi Germany being Christian...  Well, it was, but it is admittedly complicated.  More so than I realized.  From what I'm reading, the "Positive Christianity" movement Hitler introduced included some really significant modifications to basic Christian doctrine.  Like... it threw out the Old Testament, and tried to somehow make Jesus Aryan.  Despite somehow being supposed to be compatible with existing Christianity.  Sounds like the sort of doublethink one would expect under Nazi Germany.
So while it was still based on Christianity, and used antisemitic themes which existed in Christianity, it was hardly Christianity as we know it.

I didn't say anything to dishonor that hero, or any of the other heroes who risked everything to oppose the evil of the Third Reich.  I said that the Catholic Church supported it, not that every bishop did.
But uh, I think I was wrong to say even that...  It's something I've heard a lot, but I'm not actually seeing hardly any evidence of it.  I mean, Pius XI did sign a treaty of sorts:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichskonkordat
Which *diminished* the church's vocal criticism of the Nazi party...  As in, the church (and Pius XI himself, I'm finding) was decidedly outspoken against the Nazi movement until this treaty was signed.  The trade off seemed to be that clergy would stop opposing the Nazis politically, and the Nazis would... not kill them, basically.  I can hardly blame the Catholic Church for this, and I apologize for spreading a misconception.  Or at least, making an argument without properly researching it first.

[Bohandas]

The really ironic thing is that ancient Canaan was a super racist place too.