Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

I am religious and believe in free will

71 (27.7%)

I am religious and do not believe in free will

10 (3.9%)

I am not religious and believe in free will

114 (44.5%)

I am not religious and do not believe in free will

61 (23.8%)

Total Members Voted: 251

[MonkeyHead]

This is probably where things will start to go a little circular.

Sin is the violation of a divine law. It is defined by a religious faith, and there is much variance between faiths as to what constitutes one.  Most children at age 4 or 5 have little to no concept of what a god is, nor ones divine command, save for regurgitating parrot fashion anything an authority figure has told them. How can they be "naturally" sinning if they have no natural knowledge of what sin is?

[Orange Wizard]

Sin doesn't have to be concious. I can drive down the road and go over the speed limit unintentionally, for example. (Although there technically isn't a "thou shalt not speed" in the Bible, we're told to respect the authority of governments.)
That said, the important bit here is the person using toddlers as an example for innate sinfulness. They know what it is, so they can point to toddlers as an example of it. What the toddler knows or does not know is wholly irrelevant.

[MonkeyHead]

That only really works though if there is unarguably such a thing as sin in the same way that there are laws - which as has been argued in this thread is not so easily proved.

The whole nature of that way of thinking though is so.... projective and circular. A religious faith first defining a concept and then projecting it and its rules and concepts concerning it over those who do not know or reject them as some kind of "pre-judgement"? Something does not sit right there with me. Its... its almost control by fear.

Oh, and the "they know it" makes the projection a subjective one, dependant on who is doing the projecting.

[Bohandas]

Shits and giggles is always a possible answer when it comes to the divine. They're generally jackasses to some degree, after all. And considering the original believers in the christian god believed other gods existed, it makes a fair amount of sense that this'un isn't actually all that different.

I'unno, I might be fairly down with a sort of dionysian trickster god that actually wants people to not be jerks, but is compelled by its nature to play a few tricks here and there. Would even fit the problem of evil fairly nicely -- the "all powerful/knowing" thing was just stage-play. And explain its evidenced moral character -- all the raping and murdering and torture and plagues and whatnot was just slight-of-hand to screw with people.

The Book of the SubGenius speculates that Jehovah created the world in order to win a drunken bar bet

[Frumple]

That said, the important bit here is the person using toddlers as an example for innate sinfulness. They know what it is, so they can point to toddlers as an example of it. What the toddler knows or does not know is wholly irrelevant.

... except toddlers still aren't inclined to sin. They're inclined towards incomprehension (for the younger ones) or disobedience (for older), but those aren't one thing and the same.

Shouldn't be, anyway. I will acknowledge some denominations hold that obedience to your parents/elders/etc. is an absolute unbending law for which any deviance therefrom is sin, but I will cheerfully call those ones bughumping insane. I've had my parents tell me to break the law and do things harmful both to myself and others far too many times -- and gods know I feel no need to ask forgiveness from them for not going along with it -- to consider that anything but raw bupkis. Lines up with those that consider folks that have never heard of the bible as irrevocably damned, too...

---

Though I guess you could call incomprehension or disobedience sin, if you want to... it would fit in with the whole damnation of pacific islanders shtick, and fall in line with the ability to sin without intention or conscious action. Damnation from birth to death bit, too. Nasty way to look at the world, though. Doesn't seem healthy, y'know?

[Orange Wizard]

Actually, a lot of Pacific Islanders are Mormon. Although, yeah, I see your point. The whole thing about sin in the Bible is pretty horrible. Completely changes the way one views God, etc.
Most churches (AFAIK) don't believe that children must be 100% obedient (although parents will happily profess otherwise) and the term used in most Bible versions is "honour your father and your mother". Obeying them when they tell you to do something awful certainly isn't honouring them.

There's a fair number of people who believe that children are innocent in God's eyes, or that children are forgiven due to lack of understanding, or something similar. I imagine the same would hold true for senility or mental disability, or whatever as well. There's nothing in the Bible to my knowledge that directly contradicts that, at least.

[Angle]

Behold, Mortals! http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3012

[origamiscienceguy]

Behold, Mortals! http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3012

Why is god a flying coin?

[Bohandas]

Behold, Mortals! http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3012

Why is god a flying coin?

It's abstract

[Rolan7]

The artist always depicts God in that symbolic way.  Probably to emphasize the alien-ness and, possibly, sun-god connections.
Also, I grinned.

Such a Prometheus-like story, except that instead of punishing the actual perpetrator-benefactor, God condemned all humans forever.  I really don't see how one act of defiance is supposed to have ruined humanity, God's perfect creation.  If Adam and Eve were created so perfect, why were they disobedient?

Not to mention how distressing it is that an apple of *knowledge* poisons all later generations of humans, making us unfit for God's company.  Helps explain why so many fundamentalists are suspicious of science and technology.  Daring to learn and investigate is hubris! 

Again, the whole thing makes more sense if humanity was supposed to be interesting and disobey.  Makes a far better spectacle for God, and is more consistent.

[TD1]

*Bang*
Goodbye Augustine's solution to the problem of evil.

[martinuzz]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weihberg

[Baffler]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weihberg

How constructive of you.

[Arx]

"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weihberg

So Naziism is a religion?

Edit: any form of government at all, even. And love, infatuation, and anger.

[Helgoland]

Lack of information as well. Or traditional upbringing. Or being inside a chaotic system.

The longer I think about that quote, the more euphoric it appears.