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[Jim Groovester]

Jim, what was up with your behaviour before changing your vote to Shakerag? It seemed very hesitant considering the way you've acted most of the game, and you were just putting someone else in the position you were avoiding for yourself by stalling.

It was hesitant, because it was near the deadline. I could change my vote immediately and risk the deadline coming around with a tie or some other lynch happening, or I could wait and see if everybody's on board before changing my vote.

Normally I wouldn't (and don't) care about waiting for other people to change my vote but normally the deadline is days away, not a few minutes away.

Given the scenario I think a little caution is not unexpected

I didn't come to that conclusion during day 3 because I didn't have a lot of time for the game thinks to moving house, and most of the time I did have was spent working off a phone or a forty minute lunch break, which wasn't exactly helpful for building up a decent picture of people's behaviour.

So you were willing to lynch Tiruin with a poor grasp of the game but on getting a better grasp your opinion about her changed enough to protect her.

I suppose it's not impossible to have a dramatic change in opinion about somebody, especially this late in the game, but I don't necessarily believe you either.

Unvote for now.

Jim, what was up with your behaviour before changing your vote to Shakerag? It seemed very hesitant considering the way you've acted most of the game, and you were just putting someone else in the position you were avoiding for yourself by stalling.

Actually, I'd like to see some justifications from people about this. Nothing big or fancy, but just a summary of why moving to Shakerag seemed right.

Shakerag did basically nothing on Day 3 besides draw a picture or two, so I already suspected him for his terrible activity. Cheeetar pointed out that he was online not too long before the deadline, and I immediately assumed he was going to (tactically) lurk through the deadline, without reporting whether he had a new tracking device. I feared and suspected a situation where on Day 4 Shakerag claimed he didn't put a tracking device on anybody because he was too busy or whatever as a cover for him not having one because he was fakeclaiming scum. So that's why I changed my vote at the end of the day there.


Anyways, I'll be busy over the weekend and I start my new job on Monday, so don't expect to see a lot of me. I'll preemptively extend.

[zombie urist]

ZU, what reasons did you give for thinking Cheeetar was scummy, exactly? The only one I can see is you calling him scummy for asking why people were voting for Tiruin.

It was mostly process of elimination on people who I thought was town. I felt as if he was defending Tiruin and wasting my time asking me to repeat myself in addition to weak votes on Jim and Toaster. I also don't remember him contributing much D2 except rallying people to lynch Pisskop.

Did *anyone* do what they were supposed to do?

I did what I said I would do. 

What do you think of near-Day vote shifts? Compare D2 and D3.[/b]

You mean near-night vote shifts? Its kinda hard to get that much useful information from them because everyone bandwagons.

Since everything I said yesterday turned out to be wrong, I'm think its has to be Jim,Tiruin,Deus/Persus. But yeah lets see what the claims are. I'm not sure if Cheeetar can verify I blocked him through UXLZ.

Yeah, sure.
And yet you blocked someone not in your list of primary suspects.

These are my new primary suspects.

[Deus Asmoth]

Um... who are your new primary suspects?

Scripten, I switched to Shakerag because he was barely more active than Toaster, and while Toaster was going to get lynched for his inactivity Shakerag also seemed suspicious because of it, plus his not answering about who he'd put a tracking device on in spite of certainly having the opportunity to. He didn't seem all that interested in helping the town for a lot of the game as well, considering his inactivity on day 3 and his reaction to flabort wanting to kill him day 1.

[zombie urist]

Since everything I said yesterday turned out to be wrong, I'm think its has to be Jim,Tiruin,Deus/Persus. But yeah lets see what the claims are. I'm not sure if Cheeetar can verify I blocked him through UXLZ.

[Tiruin]

Tiruin, can we see your PM if it's still relevant?

Found it!
I caught the tab at 'Problem Loading Page'.
...Yeah. >_>

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So I wake up at 9:10am ._.
Translating to 5:10pm, Meph-time.

....Err, why Shakerag again?
Post count?
His posts had info and data all around, though sparse like mine.

Did I miss anyone in the sender list?
DA
Since I can't quote:

Tiruin, where am I applying metagaming at all?

Your...thing on relating some of my moves to 4mask's Operation Overload--I do recall that you tied in my playstyle there, but I seem to have misplaced the semantics with this post

(that being

She voted for Scripten during day two, but only gave her reasons for doing so today and after he voted for her she voted for him and continued barely interacting with anyone else. Her reads have been almost entirely neutral, even the ones in her big post, and I just didn't like her claim of having a town read on Pisskop after saying nothing about him during day 2

misplaced there.)
Because my mind connected that bit with Overlord.

Regarding Pisskop, my issue isn't that you thought he was town or scum. Obviously a lot of people thought he was scum. What was the point of you saying you were reading him as town when he was already dead?

>_> <_<
Because I had a nifty post stating NO DON'T LYNCH PISSKOP DESPITE {his attitude, rather than his...sillyness} with a few links and questions, but then the day ended, and then he got lynched, and then the post was more invalidated so I moved to scrap it and nudge instead.
Yeah, its talking to the wind here, but that's really how I felt about him and...me thinking that I can squeeze a dead D2 post into D3 to show my reads, really.
Looking back, 'tis understandable to see me as scum/my under that orange assumption there, though I'm unsure how that relates to a point of distrust as...it only states the now-obvious, unless its for 'town points' somehow?


...This is late a few days due to net issues + exams ._. Catching up on everything here.

PFP

Jim Groovester

Could you detail on how scum would be so overt in their dealings, and how you took the situation, as could be implied in the bottom quote?

Deus Asmoth.

I realized after asking that that I actually really wanted to vote Deus Asmoth for it.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm protecting your top suspect hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm what an interesting thing to do hmmmmmmmmmm.

Holy shit if any of you had followed the plan we would know a lot more than we do right now.

I Telepath'd Deus Amoth. He went out as Protect.
Due to the rationalization that a direct hit on him would be a very good indication of a loss for town. However, that if he's scum, he's free to act and wouldn't be trailed. Comparing that to my role to do ZU? I didn't see it as that worthwhile...given that he's pretty much still a reasonable player and would shift plan accordingly given my perceived conviction.

Alright, so basically, you didn't think the plan was going to work because if you did you would've known that Deus Asmoth's actions were completely accounted for within it, making Deus Asmoth a completely pointless target for the telepath result. If people had followed the plan there was literally no way for Deus Asmoth to do anything besides what he was supposed to without getting Persus13 killed, or from zombie urist's interference, both of which are things we would know about today and would be able to instantly act on.

Err...no?
If I thought the plan would work--which basically (I think we're talking about the plan where DA guards Persus and vice versa?) implies holistically, which I agree upon in part, but that it did leave a lot left out...then I would do what was suggested as it does favor suspects whom I would like to mark down (ie you, ZU/Persus. . . .).
...Though it did have holes, which leads me to cross and compare both plans mentioned.

So query on the blue part. It seems like you're saying there's no way DA can do anything other than what he should do--without getting Persus13 killed.
"Literally no way"? That comes of as a really concise prediction of sorts.

[Mephansteras]

The Whiteboard
Jim Groovester: zombie urist, Tiruin


Day ends ~5pm Pacific Monday

[Persus13]

Meph: Do the dopps win when they outnumber town, have more votes than town or what?

Some thoughts thrown out there. Toaster is fakeclaiming or town, as we probably would have already lost if he's scum.

UXLZ: Did Cheeetar say if he was blocked or did he not know?

The only two people voting are ZU and Tiruin. Both are voting Jim. If you are town, you need to vote so we can see where your scumpicks lie.

So, Cheeetar died last night. ZU claims he blocked Cheeetar. Tiruin telepathed DA. I protected DA. DA protected Tiruin (Why wouldn't you protect Cheeetar, he's twice as valuable and isn't a possible lynch target). Jim did nothing. Scripten did nothing. Toaster did nothing.

Could Jim have killed Cheeetar? No, unless Tiruin is on the scumteam with him, because Jim's own plan involved Tiruin telepathing him. Even so, he probably would have had Tiruin follow the plan so that he could be accounted for as having followed someone. Could he have killed NQT? No. ZU blocked him N2 and if ZU had lied and blocked someone else, we would have known that already.

Could Deus Asmoth have killed Cheeetar? Not unless he and Tiruin are both scum as Tiruin claims she telepathed Deus and got protect. Could DA have killed NQT? Yes, he could have.

Could UXLZ have killed Cheeetar? Yes, he could have, but if he was scum, why wasn't he the one sent to kill Toony N1? Could he have killed NQT? No, he couldn't have, because Shakerag put a tracking device on him and he didn't go anywhere N2.

Could Scripten have killed Cheeetar? Yes, but the same question about UXLZ could be asked about Scripten. Although maybe scum hoped to get someone killed by having them visit Scripten, or Scripten is lying about his war vet claim. Could he have killed NQT? Yes.

Could Tiruin have killed Cheeetar? Yes, she could have. She claims to have gotten a protect result on Deus Asmoth, but Deus Asmoth has been known to be a Guardian since D2 so Tiruin could reasonably fake her inspect or DA and Tiruin could both be scum so she knew DA's action anyway. Could she have killed NQT? Not unless she and ZU are on the same scumteam, as she claimed Protect on ZU before ZU's role was known.

Could Zombie Urist have killed Cheeetar? Not unless Cheeetar wasn't blocked last night. Could ZU have killed NQT? Not unless he and Tiruin are on the same team, as Tiruin reported Protect on NQT N2.

Could Toaster have killed Cheeetar? Yes, he could have, however, like UXLZ and Scripten, we have to ask why he wasn't the one who committed the scumkill N1. Could he have killed NQT? Yes.

For completion's sake, even though I know I didn't kill either of them:
Could I have killed Cheeetar? Yes, I could have. Me and DA deviating from Jim's plan does mean that neither Scripten nor DA can account for my actions. On the other hand, a plan where a change in action could have meant my death didn't appeal to me, sorry. Could I have killed NQT? No, NQT Telepathed me as Protect that night.

The above leads me to conclude that a ZU-Tiruin-someone else (probably DA) scumteam where Tiruin did the kill last night. Tiruin and ZU both voting Jim when no one else is voting cements this impression. If you are town, please vote, today is probably our last chance to win this one.

[Mephansteras]

Meph: Do the dopps win when they outnumber town, have more votes than town or what?

Dopps win when there is no possible way for town to stop them (including all potential night action resolutions). As long as it is possible for town to win, the game keeps going, even if a given victory for town is unlikely.

[Jim Groovester]

Jim Groovester

Why are you voting me?

Could you detail on how scum would be so overt in their dealings, and how you took the situation, as could be implied in the bottom quote?

I don't know what you're talking about or getting about but I can tell you you're making a bad assumption about how scum teams act.

If scum team members can come up with a reasonable enough explanation for a night action, they will act directly on each other.

Err...no?
If I thought the plan would work--which basically (I think we're talking about the plan where DA guards Persus and vice versa?) implies holistically, which I agree upon in part, but that it did leave a lot left out...then I would do what was suggested as it does favor suspects whom I would like to mark down (ie you, ZU/Persus. . . .).
...Though it did have holes, which leads me to cross and compare both plans mentioned.

So query on the blue part. It seems like you're saying there's no way DA can do anything other than what he should do--without getting Persus13 killed.
"Literally no way"? That comes of as a really concise prediction of sorts.

Their actions were completely accounted for in my plan. The one where Persus13 protects Scripten and is guarded by Deus Asmoth.

The plan everybody should have followed but nobody did.

[UXLZ]

The plan everybody should have followed but nobody did.

Well, some people did... I think... Actually, I think it was just the non night-action roles and Scripten.

Oh, also, since we'll be using all of them up anyway, extend, and before I go to school, here's the reads from the deadchat. I can't tell if Toony's are serious or but I guess I'll have to trust he's sincere and not joking.

Spoiler: NQT (click to show/hide)

Top 3 scum:
1. Tiruin: for having no suspects, for inspecting obv-town DA, staying off the lynch each day.
2. Toaster: for low post count, few suspicions and staying off the lynch each day.
3. Jim: low number of cases. High number of potential. Is it true that he only votes when a wagon is already forming? That's my feeling.

Also don't trust ZU but all 4 of them can't be scum.

Spoiler: Cheeetar (click to show/hide)

Sure. Jim, Toaster, ZU. Jim for being off his meta, Toaster for being mostly passive but still posting but not really impacting the game, and ZU for going back on himself so much and being generally useless. Note: My read on ZU is essentially the same as my read was on Pisskop, and that turned out poorly for me.

My general question around the experienced players was: Assuming Jim is scum, who would they be killing tonight (who's the best to protect?) as the next most experienced player.

Spoiler: Toony (click to show/hide)

Toaster for being King Mafia.
Tiruin because.
Zombie Urist for being sneaky.

Spoiler: Shakerag (click to show/hide)

Just based on meta, Jim proposes big plans like he did more often as town. However, I also feel like his play has been a bit 'off' this game.

I wouldn't be shocked if the scumteam was at least two or three of Jim/ZU/Tiruin/Toaster.

And, for the record, my first BM was in 2011.

Spoiler: pisskop (click to show/hide)

Tiruin telepathing DA seem completely off? Its a bad sign if she's town.

I asked for three. I feel like he owes me two more.

It's not really a nth

[UXLZ]

And I completely forgot what I was going to say at the end there. Probably something along the lines of "It's not really anything too surprising, but these should be at least a little helpful."

[Scripten]

Extend for deliberation time. Been busy and haven't been keeping up.

I find that I'm mostly agreeing with the dead players. Leaning for for a ZU, Toaster, Jim scumteam, just because Tiruin's play at the end of the last day phase felt town. However, her inspect on DA doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. I feel like going for Zombie Urist today would be our best bet. He's felt consistently off all game, moreso than Jim. (Tiruin may still be scum, but I'm nearly sure of ZU and Toaster both being scum.)

[zombie urist]

Leaning for for a ZU, Toaster, Jim scumteam

This literally makes no sense for a scumteam. If Toaster and Jim were scum, why would Jim spend most of D3 voting him? And trying to convince people to lynch him when they were tied?

If Jim and I were both scum, why would I be voting today in a probably lylo situation?

[zombie urist]

Not unless she and ZU are on the same scumteam, as she claimed Protect on ZU before ZU's role was known.

This is wrong since she claimed after me IIRC.

[Scripten]

This literally makes no sense for a scumteam. If Toaster and Jim were scum, why would Jim spend most of D3 voting him? And trying to convince people to lynch him when they were tied?

You've never heard of busing?

If Jim and I were both scum, why would I be voting today in a probably lylo situation?

All you're really advocating here is that you're on a scumteam with Tiruin. Blatantly.