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[ArchAIngel]

I want Red Hare.


Give me my murder horse, CA!

[umiman]

 

So here's the Total War team status report:

4. I guarantee you from this wording:

The game retains the same strong focus on character design that infused previous major releases, with the key personalities of the period in particular being an early priority for us now; as such there are some vibrant and striking renders plastered around the studio, with eye-catching combat animations garnering some serious attention too.

The next historical Total War will be Three Kingdoms Total War. It has to be. There really aren't a lot of historical periods of great battle where there are a lot of "key personalities" who are "vibrant" with melee combat.

They've already done the Sengoku Jidai. Charlemagne, Alexander, Rome, and all the pre-middle ages have been done. Anything involving the Medieval era will just be Medieval 2 and there aren't that many key personalities of that period that require strong character design. I mean, who gives a shit if King Henry VIII has 300 polygons for his massive dong.

There's nothing left. It has to be China. They could do something strange and have I dunno.... the Japanese conquests of Manchuria, which would be fairly interesting since it would involve Yi Sun-sin. But that would be too small in scope for a Total War game and I bet almost no one would know what that conflict even involved (it's pretty epic though).

C'mon, please be China!!!!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Just kidding, we all know it'll be Total War: SO NO CHI NO SADAME JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOJO!!!!!!

Did I tell you guys so or what.

There was no other option given all the hints they were giving.

Can't wait to play my boi Cao Cao. Crush some so called "genius" strategists by the dozens.

[Tack]

Wasn’t Cao Cao the genius?
Or was he just a quick marcher?

[umiman]

Cao Cao is my idol and who I aspire to be. So my opinion is biased.

But personally I think him and Sima Yi were the only true legends of the period. Most of the rest were just scam artists or regular people. I don't have any good things to say about anyone in Shu and the Wu so-called "Kingdom" spent more time jacking themselves off rather than do anything. Not that they could.

Want me to write a treatise on how awesome Cao Cao is? Or want me to roast all the Shu characters that are worshipped as Gods today?

[Teneb]

Spoiler: Obligatory meme (click to show/hide)

[umiman]

By the way, if you guys are wondering what's going on in the trailer, it's basically the very opening of the Romance of the Three Kingdoms period proper (after that Yellow Turban nonsense).

It's the Battle of Hulao Gate.

The fatass is Dong Zhuo, the inspector (basically governor) of Liang province in China. The dude with the red feather next to him is Lu Bu obviously. They hail from an area of China that specializes in mounted combat. Very similar to the Hunnic and Mongolian peoples. Prior to the event, Dong Zhuo was invited into the capital city by a dumbass who doesn't deserve to be named to restore order after a bunch of sexless dumbasses were being dumbasses. They were eunuchs in case you were wondering why I said that.

Anyway, since he was basically given a free pass by the abovementioned dumbasses to bring a full army right into the heart of the empire, he decided to just stay there and rule. Sounds fair to me honestly. I mean if your relatives made you drive from Seattle to Florida just to settle a dispute with a large army, you kinda deserve some shit.

Dong Zhuo ruled like a dumbass, raping and pillaging everything. This caused all the lords to rebel and they gathered together under the banner of another dumbass by the name of Yuan Shao (to be fair to him, Yuan Shao only became a dumbass after tasting power, he was pretty cool before). Anyway, some shit happens, and by some shit I mean no shit happens. Cause all the lords spent all their time being dumbasses and not doing anything.

Dong Zhuo brings basically his entire army to Hulao Pass and they taunt the alliance of dumbassery to come out and fight them. Lu Bu does most of the taunting. Some dumbasses go out to fight him, and by some I mean a lot, and they get their asses kicked. By asses I mean they were killed. So the dumbass lords become too scared to do anything. Incidentally, during this battle Cao Cao and Liu Bei were there too. But neither were lords of anything really and Cao Cao only had a small contingent of men. Liu Bei only had his two friends Guan Yu and Zhang Fei. In the trailer, Cao Cao is the guy who moves those pawns on the map and Liu Bei is the guy making the oath in the peach tree grove.

Anyway, after a bit of getting their asses kicked. Legend goes that Guan Yu and Zhang Fei, two nobodies at the time, went out and fought Lu Bu. Zhang Fei fought solo at first. It was here that Zhang Fei basically called him a triple bastard. Because Lu Bu abandoned his real father, betrayed his foster father (for a horse...), and was now the lapdog of his third father. Lol.

Anyway, Zhang Fei started losing, and in true fashion to their real historical characters, Guan Yu interrupted this manly 1 on 1 duel and now fought Lu Bu 2 on 1. How chivalrous. But of course I expect nothing more from a bunch of rapist country-bumpkin bandits. But enough about that. See Liu Bei felt left out and went and fought him too, so now this duel was 3 on 1. How fair. Lu Bu lost and retreated. Which basically ended the battle. This also teaches us that no one gives a shit about honorable duels as long as you win.

Now the fun part. You'd think after winning this defining battle, the dumbasses would had won the entire war. I mean, for all intents and purposes they could. It would have been easy to run down with the alliance troops and obliterate the remainder of Dong Zhuo's fatass army. However, reality begged to differ.

The alliance was not a true alliance. These dumbass lords were more interested in their own profits than the Empire as a whole. They had absolutely no intention of sacrificing or risking their troops to defeat a relatively sizeable army. So they sat and squabbled with each other with only basically two lords actually doing anything (and failing). One of those was Cao Cao, who barely even had an army and got obliterated. The legend goes that it was at this point that Cao Cao realized he was surrounded by morons and if the Empire had any hope of being reunited, he had to do it himself. The other was Sun Jian, the father of those who would eventually form the Wu "kingdom". Sun Jian was a pretty cool dude. So Dong Zhuo managed to make it back to the capital, which he promptly moved to a completely different part of the country. It would be many, many years later before he would be killed and defeated.

Thus began the period of strife. Now the empire was basically split into a couple dozen random-ass dumbasses of varying degrees of legitimacy as everyone scrambled to claim whatever they could for themselves.

A few years after that the map would basically look like this:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

p.s: This entire battle was fictional btw. Didn't happen in real life.

[angelious]

Cao Cao is my idol and who I aspire to be. So my opinion is biased.

But personally I think him and Sima Yi were the only true legends of the period. Most of the rest were just scam artists or regular people. I don't have any good things to say about anyone in Shu and the Wu so-called "Kingdom" spent more time jacking themselves off rather than do anything. Not that they could.

Want me to write a treatise on how awesome Cao Cao is? Or want me to roast all the Shu characters that are worshipped as Gods today?

Lu bu was one of the most renowed warriors ever in both east and west.  zhuge liang was credited as being as good of a tactician and a strategist as sun tzu was,guan yu literally became a god in chinese mythology,ma chao was credited to be among the greatest duelists to ever live in china, zhao yun was legendary in nearly everything he did, then there is the sun family,with each member(well not so for sun quan..) attaining huge amounts of fame and respect  in chinese history.


the time period became as legendary as it is in modern days because it was filled with extra ordinary generals and warriors.  you are quite narrow minded if you believe sima yi and cao cao were the best, or worse yet: the only awesome people to come out of that time period.

also if you want to complain about lack of valor: then how about cao cao trying to assassinate dong zhuo while staying as a house guest at his place, and then later on murdering his own uncle and laughing about it afterwards because he found out the reason he killed him was false?

[umiman]

I know the real history, not the bullshit written in Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I've read everything from the commentaries on the Three Kingdoms by Pei Songzhi to everything by the greatest expert on the period, Rafe de Crespigny. Yes, the foremost expert on the period is a Frenchman.

Zhuge Liang was an incompetent imbecile who accomplished nothing but bragged about everything like he was so amazing. Not to mention the author spent so much time sucking his cock I'm surprised he didn't gag. He probably just loved it. Fucking fanboy. Oh wait a minute... most of the later parts of that novel are based on Zhuge Liang's personally written autobiography. Wow, I wonder if that might be a little biased. Who the fuck brags about "inventing" the wheelbarrow? He's a dumbshit.

Lu Bu was a child who only knew how to fight and nothing else. He got completely owned by everyone and everything and died like the dumbshit he is. Accomplishing nothing and just generally wasting everyone's time.

You want to know the real history of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei? So called God of War? How the fuck did this massively incompetent buffoon managed to become venerated is beyond me. It's like someone worshipping Darius 3 like a god. Throughout the real, actual history. Guan Yu won not a single battle. NOT A SINGLE BATTLE. He didn't win anything. Every single time he was left alone to lead, he fucked up. Hell, he fucked up so bad he literally lost the entirety of Shu. This was even in the novel itself. Remember Fan castle? Good job Guan Yu. You had one single job. Chill out in Jing province and Liu Bei would probably control China (he wouldn't but for arguments sake lets say he stood a chance). Nope. Gotta go lose the entire war for everyone. His strategy for regional control was to piss everyone off even if he didn't need to, and go march to his own death. What a smart guy.

What about Zhang Fei? Brilliant guy. Let's list his achievements:

1. Kidnapped Xiahou Yuan's 13 year old niece and forced her to be his wife for the rest of her life, raping her repeatedly and forcing her to give birth to four children.
2. Permanently drunk and useless. Frequently killing his own men in fits of drunkenless and / or rage.
3. Destroyed a bridge.
4. Was killed by his own men because they were sick and tired of him, helping to destroy his own kingdom.

Wow. Fantastic guy. Great person all around. Hey, at least he won some battles.

You don't even have to take my word for it. All of this is in their respective wiki pages. But in case you're a man of intellect, you can read the below.

Sources:

1. Annotations to Records of the Three Kingdoms by Pei Songzhi.
2. Generals of the South by Rafe de Crespigny.
3. Northern Frontier by Rafe de Crespigny.
4. Man from the Margin by Rafe de Crespigny.

---------

tl;dr: There's two Three Kingdoms. One is the real history. One is the fiction written in Romance of the Three Kingdoms. They are entirely different.

More info here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3h6cy4/was_cao_cao_really_kind_of_a_tragic_hero_of_the/

Additionally, I will post this article written by a guy much smarter than me on why there's such a massive discrepancy between actual history and the novel:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A whole hell of a lot of this can be blamed on a bastard named Xi Zuochi. We’ll get to his role in things momentarily, but first we have to set the stage.

Each of the Three Kingdoms had its own method of justifying its power. Wei’s justification was that the Han had abdicated to it, so it was the legal authority. Since Jin came to power in the exact same way, it relied upon the same justification. And if anyone is correct, it’s them. The Han legally passed its authority to Wei, and Wei to Jin - dubious circumstances around these events notwithstanding.

Wu based its power on the idea that the south was so culturally different from the north that it should be an independent state. Shu claimed to be an extension of the Han, since Liu Bei was (allegedly) related to the Han Imperial line and was the last of that bloodline with any sort of power.

Wei conquered Shu, then became Jin, and Jin conquered Wu in 280. Everything was fine for the next 20 years or so. Sima Yan ruled from 280 until his death in 290, and Jia Nanfeng ruled for her husband (the mentally retarded Sima Zhong) from 290-300. Both of them did a good job of keeping everything in line. But a group of powerful Sima princes rebelled against Jia Nanfeng in 300 and killed her. Their leader, Sima Lun, usurped the throne and named himself emperor, beginning th War of Eight Princes (though two of them were already long dead by that point).

Throughout this war, different Sima princes tried to either control the emperor or take the title for themselves. This completely destroyed the central government, and regional leaders succeeded to form their own territories. The defenses in the north failed and the Xiongnu and Xianbei flooded throughout the north and central China. Ultimately the Xiongnu captured Luoyang, then Chang’an. They kept two Jin emperors as puppets, but they ultimately killed both of them.

Meanwhile, in the south (in what was once Wu), a prince named Sima Rui managed to successfully defend his territory against invasion and it became a safe haven for refugees from the north. He named himself King of Jin in 317, and after Emperor Sima Ye’s death in 318, he took the Imperial title for himself, beginning Eastern Jin.

At that point, Sima Rui was in pretty much the same situation as Liu Bei. The central government was destroyed and/or in the hands of hostile elements, and he held his Imperial title only because he was the last of the Imperial line who had any power with which to enforce it. While Western Jin was in the same situation as Wei, Eastern Jin’s situation was more similar to that of Shu. Chinese emperors and scholars loved having precedents and examples from the past to point to (it’s a big deal in Confucianism), so the Eastern Jin leaders wanted to have some past example to justify their power. Since they lived in a situation similar to that of Shu, they decided that building up Shu as the legitimate heir to the Han (rather than Wei) would be a way to grant themselves the same legitimacy.

Enter Xi Zuochi. He may have been a real historian at once point, but he decided to throw out all of his credibility in favor of currying political favor. He wrote a book called the Han Jin Chunqiu (Spring and Autumn of Han and Jin) in which he made an effort to cast the leaders of Shu in a positive light, presenting them as talented and virtuous men, loyal to the Han. This work was written entirely for political purposes and is not trustworthy at all. In it, Xi Zuochi invents countless tales to make the Shu leaders look like moral authorities. He was the first to take a hard-line stance saying that Wei was a dynasty of usurpers while Shu was the legitimate one.

His work is disgusting. It’s full of falsehoods, many of which are easy to disprove, either logically or textually . He invented whatever stories he wished and told whatever lies came to mind in order to make his case. It was a work of political propaganda, nothing more. Trusting anything in this work is like believing a biography of Barack Obama written by Mitt Romney (or the other way around). It’s entirely untrustworthy.

Xi Zuochi’s work was no doubt based in part upon folktales and legends that already existed, particularly in the territory where Shu once ruled. It was his work, though, that really planted these seeds, and other events allowed them to grow. The state of Cheng Han, for example, existed where Shu used to and certainly made use of these stories to further their own power.

Other events later in China’s history helped to further this view. Whenever the government was displaced from the capital, sympathies always turned to Liu Bei, for the reasons established in Eastern Jin.

What really cemented Shu’s heroic status was the Mongol invasions, which drove the Chinese government into the far southwest corner of China - where Shu once ruled. Once again in the same situation as Shu, and now in the same geographical location, the Chinese government relied heavily on such pro-Shu stories as propaganda and sources of comfort. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms was written during the reign of the Mongols and was probably the final nail in this particular construction.

Now, the idea of Liu Bei and his friends as great, virtuous, heroic figures has been firmly entrenched in China for more than a thousand years. Even people who study the history and can see for themselves how these men acted find it difficult to abandon these myths. And since most people come into the Three Kingdoms after reading about the stories, this idea persists.

At the end of the day, it all comes back to political convenience.

[Levi]

Cao Cao is my idol and who I aspire to be. So my opinion is biased.

But Cao Cao was the bad guy!  A bad guy with ridiculously good HR skills.   

[umiman]

Cao Cao is my idol and who I aspire to be. So my opinion is biased.

But Cao Cao was the bad guy!  A bad guy with ridiculously good HR skills.   

Everyone preferred Han Solo when he shot first.

--------

That being said. I'm glad CA is focusing more on the novelization rather than the actual history. This is because the novel is way more interesting and would lead to far better gameplay and story.

Also the actual history would have really boring battles. It would basically just end up being peasant mob vs peasant mob. The novel has all the cool units and formations and stuff.

[angelious]

I know the real history, not the bullshit written in Romance of the Three Kingdoms. I've read everything from the commentaries on the Three Kingdoms by Pei Songzhi to everything by the greatest expert on the period, Rafe de Crespigny. Yes, the foremost expert on the period is a Frenchman.

Zhuge Liang was an incompetent imbecile who accomplished nothing but bragged about everything like he was so amazing. Not to mention the author spent so much time sucking his cock I'm surprised he didn't gag. He probably just loved it. Fucking fanboy. Oh wait a minute... most of the later parts of that novel are based on Zhuge Liang's personally written autobiography. Wow, I wonder if that might be a little biased. Who the fuck brags about "inventing" the wheelbarrow? He's a dumbshit.

Lu Bu was a child who only knew how to fight and nothing else. He got completely owned by everyone and everything and died like the dumbshit he is. Accomplishing nothing and just generally wasting everyone's time.

You want to know the real history of Guan Yu and Zhang Fei? So called God of War? How the fuck did this massively incompetent buffoon managed to become venerated is beyond me. It's like someone worshipping Darius 3 like a god. Throughout the real, actual history. Guan Yu won not a single battle. NOT A SINGLE BATTLE. He didn't win anything. Every single time he was left alone to lead, he fucked up. Hell, he fucked up so bad he literally lost the entirety of Shu. This was even in the novel itself. Remember Fan castle? Good job Guan Yu. You had one single job. Chill out in Jing province and Liu Bei would probably control China (he wouldn't but for arguments sake lets say he stood a chance). Nope. Gotta go lose the entire war for everyone. His strategy for regional control was to piss everyone off even if he didn't need to, and go march to his own death. What a smart guy.

What about Zhang Fei? Brilliant guy. Let's list his achievements:

1. Kidnapped Xiahou Yuan's 13 year old niece and forced her to be his wife for the rest of her life, raping her repeatedly and forcing her to give birth to four children.
2. Permanently drunk and useless. Frequently killing his own men in fits of drunkenless and / or rage.
3. Destroyed a bridge.
4. Was killed by his own men because they were sick and tired of him, helping to destroy his own kingdom.

Wow. Fantastic guy. Great person all around. Hey, at least he won some battles.

You don't even have to take my word for it. All of this is in their respective wiki pages. But in case you're a man of intellect, you can read the below.

Sources:

1. Annotations to Records of the Three Kingdoms by Pei Songzhi.
2. Generals of the South by Rafe de Crespigny.
3. Northern Frontier by Rafe de Crespigny.
4. Man from the Margin by Rafe de Crespigny.

---------

tl;dr: There's two Three Kingdoms. One is the real history. One is the fiction written in Romance of the Three Kingdoms. They are entirely different.

More info here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/3h6cy4/was_cao_cao_really_kind_of_a_tragic_hero_of_the/

Additionally, I will post this article written by a guy much smarter than me on why there's such a massive discrepancy between actual history and the novel:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A whole hell of a lot of this can be blamed on a bastard named Xi Zuochi. We’ll get to his role in things momentarily, but first we have to set the stage.

Each of the Three Kingdoms had its own method of justifying its power. Wei’s justification was that the Han had abdicated to it, so it was the legal authority. Since Jin came to power in the exact same way, it relied upon the same justification. And if anyone is correct, it’s them. The Han legally passed its authority to Wei, and Wei to Jin - dubious circumstances around these events notwithstanding.

Wu based its power on the idea that the south was so culturally different from the north that it should be an independent state. Shu claimed to be an extension of the Han, since Liu Bei was (allegedly) related to the Han Imperial line and was the last of that bloodline with any sort of power.

Wei conquered Shu, then became Jin, and Jin conquered Wu in 280. Everything was fine for the next 20 years or so. Sima Yan ruled from 280 until his death in 290, and Jia Nanfeng ruled for her husband (the mentally retarded Sima Zhong) from 290-300. Both of them did a good job of keeping everything in line. But a group of powerful Sima princes rebelled against Jia Nanfeng in 300 and killed her. Their leader, Sima Lun, usurped the throne and named himself emperor, beginning th War of Eight Princes (though two of them were already long dead by that point).

Throughout this war, different Sima princes tried to either control the emperor or take the title for themselves. This completely destroyed the central government, and regional leaders succeeded to form their own territories. The defenses in the north failed and the Xiongnu and Xianbei flooded throughout the north and central China. Ultimately the Xiongnu captured Luoyang, then Chang’an. They kept two Jin emperors as puppets, but they ultimately killed both of them.

Meanwhile, in the south (in what was once Wu), a prince named Sima Rui managed to successfully defend his territory against invasion and it became a safe haven for refugees from the north. He named himself King of Jin in 317, and after Emperor Sima Ye’s death in 318, he took the Imperial title for himself, beginning Eastern Jin.

At that point, Sima Rui was in pretty much the same situation as Liu Bei. The central government was destroyed and/or in the hands of hostile elements, and he held his Imperial title only because he was the last of the Imperial line who had any power with which to enforce it. While Western Jin was in the same situation as Wei, Eastern Jin’s situation was more similar to that of Shu. Chinese emperors and scholars loved having precedents and examples from the past to point to (it’s a big deal in Confucianism), so the Eastern Jin leaders wanted to have some past example to justify their power. Since they lived in a situation similar to that of Shu, they decided that building up Shu as the legitimate heir to the Han (rather than Wei) would be a way to grant themselves the same legitimacy.

Enter Xi Zuochi. He may have been a real historian at once point, but he decided to throw out all of his credibility in favor of currying political favor. He wrote a book called the Han Jin Chunqiu (Spring and Autumn of Han and Jin) in which he made an effort to cast the leaders of Shu in a positive light, presenting them as talented and virtuous men, loyal to the Han. This work was written entirely for political purposes and is not trustworthy at all. In it, Xi Zuochi invents countless tales to make the Shu leaders look like moral authorities. He was the first to take a hard-line stance saying that Wei was a dynasty of usurpers while Shu was the legitimate one.

His work is disgusting. It’s full of falsehoods, many of which are easy to disprove, either logically or textually . He invented whatever stories he wished and told whatever lies came to mind in order to make his case. It was a work of political propaganda, nothing more. Trusting anything in this work is like believing a biography of Barack Obama written by Mitt Romney (or the other way around). It’s entirely untrustworthy.

Xi Zuochi’s work was no doubt based in part upon folktales and legends that already existed, particularly in the territory where Shu once ruled. It was his work, though, that really planted these seeds, and other events allowed them to grow. The state of Cheng Han, for example, existed where Shu used to and certainly made use of these stories to further their own power.

Other events later in China’s history helped to further this view. Whenever the government was displaced from the capital, sympathies always turned to Liu Bei, for the reasons established in Eastern Jin.

What really cemented Shu’s heroic status was the Mongol invasions, which drove the Chinese government into the far southwest corner of China - where Shu once ruled. Once again in the same situation as Shu, and now in the same geographical location, the Chinese government relied heavily on such pro-Shu stories as propaganda and sources of comfort. The Romance of the Three Kingdoms was written during the reign of the Mongols and was probably the final nail in this particular construction.

Now, the idea of Liu Bei and his friends as great, virtuous, heroic figures has been firmly entrenched in China for more than a thousand years. Even people who study the history and can see for themselves how these men acted find it difficult to abandon these myths. And since most people come into the Three Kingdoms after reading about the stories, this idea persists.

At the end of the day, it all comes back to political convenience.

never talked anything about liu bei or zhang fei.although liu bei was pretty much as big of a douche as cao cao and the rest of the rulers were;he was noted to have charismatic personality (hence why several of the greatest generals and tacticians of their time decided to side with shu)and he was noted to be extremely benevolent towards his followers (best exemplified when he refused to abandon the peasantry when cao cao was hunting him and his own down..this also was the event where zhang fei made his name via holding a bridge with only 20 horsemen and sheer intimidation) as for zhuge liang: the guy wasnt incompetent, he had vastly inferior army and less resources than any of the other kingdoms. and yet he managed to beat zhou yu (wu's head tactician) in battle so badly zhou yu is claimed to have died out of frustration because of it, he also held the line againts wei advances and managed to actually gain some head way in his campaigns againts wei, despite the fact that the angle from which he had to attack was utterly insane and impossible to conquerror.he was also the guy who made the entire strategy that would have "won" shu the entire war had it not been for guan yu's arrogance. not to mention sima yi,the guy whose dick you are lusting after, was so afraid of him a mere statue of the man was enough to make him shit his pants. as for your claim that guan yu didnt do jackshit: He was a renowed warrior of such a high quality that even cao cao lusted after his mighty beard,which is why he was namened a god of war.said to be capable of taking on armies by himself. he wasnt a great politician and as a general he only attained some victories(unlike what you claim) such as during liu beis route(the same one where zhang fei held the bridge with nothing but good indimidation rolls) where he stopped cao cao from curbstombing liu bei to the ground with his army.saving just about the entire shu kingdom from being destroyed before it even was formed.


as for rotk sucking on zhuges dick? the guy writing it basically flip flopped between constantly belittling the man and claiming "he sucked as a tactician but was an amazing statesman" to saying zhuges only real accomplishment was hiring out skilled people to do work for him.

[umiman]

never talked anything about liu bei or zhang fei.although liu bei was pretty much as big of a douche as cao cao and the rest of the rulers were;he was noted to have charismatic personality (hence why several of the greatest generals and tacticians of their time decided to side with shu)and he was noted to be extremely benevolent towards his followers (best exemplified when he refused to abandon the peasantry when cao cao was hunting him and his own down..this also was the event where zhang fei made his name via holding a bridge with only 20 horsemen and sheer intimidation) as for zhuge liang: the guy wasnt incompetent, he had vastly inferior army and less resources than any of the other kingdoms. and yet he managed to beat zhou yu (wu's head tactician) in battle so badly zhou yu is claimed to have died out of frustration because of it, he also held the line againts wei advances and managed to actually gain some head way in his campaigns againts wei, despite the fact that the angle from which he had to attack was utterly insane and impossible to conquerror.he was also the guy who made the entire strategy that would have "won" shu the entire war had it not been for guan yu's arrogance. not to mention sima yi,the guy whose dick you are lusting after, was so afraid of him a mere statue of the man was enough to make him shit his pants. as for your claim that guan yu didnt do jackshit: He was a renowed warrior of such a high quality that even cao cao lusted after his mighty beard,which is why he was namened a god of war.said to be capable of taking on armies by himself. he wasnt a great politician and as a general he only attained some victories(unlike what you claim) such as during liu beis route(the same one where zhang fei held the bridge with nothing but good indimidation rolls) where he stopped cao cao from curbstombing liu bei to the ground with his army.saving just about the entire shu kingdom from being destroyed before it even was formed.


as for rotk sucking on zhuges dick? the guy writing it basically flip flopped between constantly belittling the man and claiming "he sucked as a tactician but was an amazing statesman" to saying zhuges only real accomplishment was hiring out skilled people to do work for him.

[lordcooper]

Never go full retard.

[Il Palazzo]

But seriously. Fuck Liu Bei and the overpolished cocks of Shu. Would not serve my wife for dinner. 3/10.
(except for Ma Chao. He alright)

[Kruniac]

Never go full retard.

I mean, the one is a dose of autism, the other is a dose of ROTK/DW fanboyism. They sort of cancel each other out, like two waves crashing together.