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[Strife26]

That's not how executive orders have worked in the post three administrations. They're laws in all but the very pendantic definitions, and the fun things that the executive agencies do are generally even stronger things. Call the legislature out for not doing their jobs, sure, but trying to say that the executive response has been perfectly reasonable and in line with either the Constitution's words or its intent is either dishonest or wrong.

I mean, fuck, the modern rights-ignoring kangaroo court system we see on college campuses are the direct result of the Executive branch taking every bit of latitude they can from Title IX.

[SirQuiamus]

Uh, guys...

Remember that I'm talking about "liberals" and "authoritarians" in terms of Batty Bob's questionnaire, which is supposedly designed to identify certain "authoritarian personality traits," namely the following:

Authoritarian followers usually support the established authorities in their
society, such as government officials and traditional religious leaders. Such people
have historically been the “proper” authorities in life, the time-honored, entitled,
customary leaders, and that means a lot to most authoritarians. Psychologically these
followers have personalities featuring:
1) a high degree of submission to the established, legitimate authorities in
their society;
2) high levels of aggression in the name of their authorities; and
3) a high level of conventionalism.

Now, I'm arguing that a self-identified "liberal" who scores very low on the RWA scale could nevertheless exhibit the above characteristics under certain circumstances not simulated by the test questions, and one example of such circumstances can be found in the authoritarian culture of the corporate world. You seem to be taking issue with this claim, but I cannot see anything controversial about it. If we consider the three traits one by one, we can see that they fit in seamlessly with the requirements of employment in any large for-profit corporation:

1) Employment in a company requires integration into the organizational hierarchy and absolute submission to the authority of your superiors. The exploitative capitalist arrangement wherein the owners of the company appropriate the surplus value of your work is regarded as the "proper" and "time-honored" way to do things. The worker gets paid according to the proper market value of his contribution, and the profits belong to the shareholders rather than the employees. You are not allowed to question these basic principles, and if you do, your employment will be terminated.

2) It is not enough to only maintain your own loyalty towards the company – you are also expected to police the behaviour of your co-workers and report all possible deviations to your superiors. If you are employed in middle management, you are personally responsible for the productivity of your inferiors and the smooth operation of the organization from your position downwards. If the management demands aggression towards a particular employee for a lack of productivity, you must comply or your own job is in peril. The enemies of the company must be punished – that is the proper way to do things. Also, keep in mind that since the company is now your primary in-group, the rest of the world belongs automatically in the out-group as long as you are on their payroll. This includes malnourished children in Bangladeshi sweatshops as well as fat judges in federal courtrooms. The laws of society mean nothing within the walls of the corporation – there is only loyalty to your superiors and servitude to your paycheck.

3) Although all co-workers are essentially enemies and competitors in the company structure, the continued smooth operation of the system also requires co-operation among the employees. Maintaining a co-operative environment is facilitated by authoritarian group cohesion, also known as "team spirit" in consult-speak. In other words, absolute conformity and conventionality is required from each and every employee, and the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. It is very important that all workers "fit in" with the company culture, and optimally the misfits who cannot stomach the right and proper ways should be winnowed out during the hiring process. If a maladjusted miscreant does make it in by chance, it is possible to pare them down to size by way of company picnics, casual fridays, and workplace bullying. If that does not help, firing is always an option. Unproductive personalities must be nipped in the bud.


...there, hopefully these examples clarified things for a little.

[Shadowlord]

Wait, you're still talking about that thing?

[Cheeetar]

I mean, fuck, the modern rights-ignoring kangaroo court system we see on college campuses are the direct result of the Executive branch taking every bit of latitude they can from Title IX.

College campus courts?

[nenjin]

if Congress re-intreprets a law in a way the executive disagrees with, they can simply override that interpretation with an executive order.

What?  Executive orders aren't law dude.  You've got it entirely ass backwards.  If Congress doesn't like an executive order, they pass a law or withhold bugeting.  Executive orders only happen within the context of laws already passed and budgets voted on.  The only problem is that congress just keeps passing the same budget and not updating the law.

And under which law would an executive order like this or this fall? Many executive orders do say things like "in order to further compliance with [the law], I hear by do this." Not all though. There's less incentive to not use executive orders in defiance of Congress when  Congress will threaten the budget anyways even when spending hasn't changed.

[Orange Wizard]

I mean, fuck, the modern rights-ignoring kangaroo court system we see on college campuses are the direct result of the Executive branch taking every bit of latitude they can from Title IX.

College campus courts?

Are weird and terrible, but I don't see what it has to do with the executive government.

[Lord Shonus]

if Congress re-intreprets a law in a way the executive disagrees with, they can simply override that interpretation with an executive order.

What?  Executive orders aren't law dude.  You've got it entirely ass backwards.  If Congress doesn't like an executive order, they pass a law or withhold bugeting.  Executive orders only happen within the context of laws already passed and budgets voted on.  The only problem is that congress just keeps passing the same budget and not updating the law.

And under which law would an executive order like this fall?

The head of the Executive Branch has the power to declare a holiday for that branch, just as the president of a company has the power to declare a holiday for that company.

[mainiac]

And under which law would an executive order like this or this fall? Many executive orders do say things like "in order to further compliance with [the law], I hear by do this." Not all though. There's less incentive to not use executive orders in defiance of Congress when  Congress will threaten the budget anyways even when spending hasn't changed.

The budget of 2001 and the various laws establishing the peace corps, americorps, etc? 

Look, if you dont understand how the arcane details of something you dont leap to bizarre assumptions.

[nenjin]

Fair enough. I was mostly thinking back to the ending days of Bush's tenure when he was signing a lot of executive orders and democrats were saying they were effectively countermanding legislation.

[Veylon]

1) Employment in a company requires integration into the organizational hierarchy and absolute submission to the authority of your superiors. The exploitative capitalist arrangement wherein the owners of the company appropriate the surplus value of your work is regarded as the "proper" and "time-honored" way to do things. The worker gets paid according to the proper market value of his contribution, and the profits belong to the shareholders rather than the employees. You are not allowed to question these basic principles, and if you do, your employment will be terminated.

2) It is not enough to only maintain your own loyalty towards the company – you are also expected to police the behaviour of your co-workers and report all possible deviations to your superiors. If you are employed in middle management, you are personally responsible for the productivity of your inferiors and the smooth operation of the organization from your position downwards. If the management demands aggression towards a particular employee for a lack of productivity, you must comply or your own job is in peril. The enemies of the company must be punished – that is the proper way to do things. Also, keep in mind that since the company is now your primary in-group, the rest of the world belongs automatically in the out-group as long as you are on their payroll. This includes malnourished children in Bangladeshi sweatshops as well as fat judges in federal courtrooms. The laws of society mean nothing within the walls of the corporation – there is only loyalty to your superiors and servitude to your paycheck.

3) Although all co-workers are essentially enemies and competitors in the company structure, the continued smooth operation of the system also requires co-operation among the employees. Maintaining a co-operative environment is facilitated by authoritarian group cohesion, also known as "team spirit" in consult-speak. In other words, absolute conformity and conventionality is required from each and every employee, and the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. It is very important that all workers "fit in" with the company culture, and optimally the misfits who cannot stomach the right and proper ways should be winnowed out during the hiring process. If a maladjusted miscreant does make it in by chance, it is possible to pare them down to size by way of company picnics, casual fridays, and workplace bullying. If that does not help, firing is always an option. Unproductive personalities must be nipped in the bud.

Every organization ever works this way. The Catholic Church, a hippie commune, and the US Marine Corps will all police your appearance and behavior if you are a part of them and boot you if you buck the system. The concept of group cohesion is not an invention of capitalistic enterprise.

[SirQuiamus]

1) Employment in a company requires integration into the organizational hierarchy and absolute submission to the authority of your superiors. The exploitative capitalist arrangement wherein the owners of the company appropriate the surplus value of your work is regarded as the "proper" and "time-honored" way to do things. The worker gets paid according to the proper market value of his contribution, and the profits belong to the shareholders rather than the employees. You are not allowed to question these basic principles, and if you do, your employment will be terminated.

2) It is not enough to only maintain your own loyalty towards the company – you are also expected to police the behaviour of your co-workers and report all possible deviations to your superiors. If you are employed in middle management, you are personally responsible for the productivity of your inferiors and the smooth operation of the organization from your position downwards. If the management demands aggression towards a particular employee for a lack of productivity, you must comply or your own job is in peril. The enemies of the company must be punished – that is the proper way to do things. Also, keep in mind that since the company is now your primary in-group, the rest of the world belongs automatically in the out-group as long as you are on their payroll. This includes malnourished children in Bangladeshi sweatshops as well as fat judges in federal courtrooms. The laws of society mean nothing within the walls of the corporation – there is only loyalty to your superiors and servitude to your paycheck.

3) Although all co-workers are essentially enemies and competitors in the company structure, the continued smooth operation of the system also requires co-operation among the employees. Maintaining a co-operative environment is facilitated by authoritarian group cohesion, also known as "team spirit" in consult-speak. In other words, absolute conformity and conventionality is required from each and every employee, and the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. It is very important that all workers "fit in" with the company culture, and optimally the misfits who cannot stomach the right and proper ways should be winnowed out during the hiring process. If a maladjusted miscreant does make it in by chance, it is possible to pare them down to size by way of company picnics, casual fridays, and workplace bullying. If that does not help, firing is always an option. Unproductive personalities must be nipped in the bud.

Every organization ever works this way. The Catholic Church, a hippie commune, and the US Marine Corps will all police your appearance and behavior if you are a part of them and boot you if you buck the system. The concept of group cohesion is not an invention of capitalistic enterprise.

My point exactly. Literally everyone participates in some hierarchical organization or another, regardless of whether they self-identify as "authoritarian" or not. There is no such thing as a purely anti-authoritarian society, because there is no such thing as a purely anti-authoritarian human being. Scoring low on the ridiculous RWA test only indicates that you are so integrated into the hierarchy that you fail to even perceive it as authoritarian. Power permeates all human social structures whether they be fascist dictatorships, capitalist enterprises, or anarchist communes. The only question is whose power.

[sluissa]

1) Employment in a company requires integration into the organizational hierarchy and absolute submission to the authority of your superiors. The exploitative capitalist arrangement wherein the owners of the company appropriate the surplus value of your work is regarded as the "proper" and "time-honored" way to do things. The worker gets paid according to the proper market value of his contribution, and the profits belong to the shareholders rather than the employees. You are not allowed to question these basic principles, and if you do, your employment will be terminated.

2) It is not enough to only maintain your own loyalty towards the company – you are also expected to police the behaviour of your co-workers and report all possible deviations to your superiors. If you are employed in middle management, you are personally responsible for the productivity of your inferiors and the smooth operation of the organization from your position downwards. If the management demands aggression towards a particular employee for a lack of productivity, you must comply or your own job is in peril. The enemies of the company must be punished – that is the proper way to do things. Also, keep in mind that since the company is now your primary in-group, the rest of the world belongs automatically in the out-group as long as you are on their payroll. This includes malnourished children in Bangladeshi sweatshops as well as fat judges in federal courtrooms. The laws of society mean nothing within the walls of the corporation – there is only loyalty to your superiors and servitude to your paycheck.

3) Although all co-workers are essentially enemies and competitors in the company structure, the continued smooth operation of the system also requires co-operation among the employees. Maintaining a co-operative environment is facilitated by authoritarian group cohesion, also known as "team spirit" in consult-speak. In other words, absolute conformity and conventionality is required from each and every employee, and the nail that sticks out gets hammered down. It is very important that all workers "fit in" with the company culture, and optimally the misfits who cannot stomach the right and proper ways should be winnowed out during the hiring process. If a maladjusted miscreant does make it in by chance, it is possible to pare them down to size by way of company picnics, casual fridays, and workplace bullying. If that does not help, firing is always an option. Unproductive personalities must be nipped in the bud.

Every organization ever works this way. The Catholic Church, a hippie commune, and the US Marine Corps will all police your appearance and behavior if you are a part of them and boot you if you buck the system. The concept of group cohesion is not an invention of capitalistic enterprise.

My point exactly. Literally everyone participates in some hierarchical organization or another, regardless of whether they self-identify as "authoritarian" or not. There is no such thing as a purely anti-authoritarian society, because there is no such thing as a purely anti-authoritarian human being. Scoring low on the ridiculous RWA test only indicates that you are so integrated into the hierarchy that you fail to even perceive it as authoritarian. Power permeates all human social structures whether they be fascist dictatorships, capitalist enterprises, or anarchist communes. The only question is whose power.

Not sure if I should put on my tin foil hat or take my meds.

frysquint.jpg

[SirQuiamus]

Not sure if I should put on my tin foil hat or take my meds.

Wage Slavery is Freedom!

Drone Strikes are Peace!

Corporate Fascism is Democracy!

Vote Hillary!

[Andmore]

Not sure if I should put on my tin foil hat or take my meds.

Wage Slavery is Freedom!

Drone Strikes are Peace!

Corporate Fascism is Democracy!

Vote Hillary!

(Large image)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Twi]

so uh, do we have any news or have we gone full political philosophy