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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1583007 times)

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17715 on: May 10, 2016, 02:41:35 pm »

Not that Facebook aren't self-righteous degenerates, but private companies were actually required to disseminate equal political news back in the day.
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Reelya

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17716 on: May 10, 2016, 02:56:39 pm »

Also considering that any Conservative on Facebook can literally have a 100% Conservative main feed, if they really want to. So the "trending" isn't keeping conservatives from conservative news.

This is really all about promoting the rest of us to be exposed to our approved dose of Conservative news. There's a lot of news that's not political at all. It could be just a case that not all the political news trivia is newsworthy enough to hit the trending news at all.

How much of Huff Post, Mother Jones, or Media Matters actually gets into the "trending" box? Not a whole lot. Some conservatives are like "This trending news box should be chock full of Brietbart and FOX articles!" Well, you'd have to give equal time to Mother Jones and Media Matters then, as well. Which would probably inflame conservatives even more than the joy of exposing everyone to the latest Brietbart headlines.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 03:02:36 pm by Reelya »
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Max™

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17717 on: May 10, 2016, 03:43:23 pm »

>using facebook
>implying something

Oh wait, this isn't 4chan!

Oh Armok, I might have to use facebook more to campaign huh?

So it has come to this...
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17718 on: May 10, 2016, 04:07:15 pm »

Well, they wouldn't really.

They really would.  Take for example the power of the EPA to put caps on carbon emission at executive discretion.  This power exists because if the law doesn't get updated, the executive branch decides how to interpret it.  There would be no need for interpretation if the law got updated.  Interpret the law isn't supposed to normally be a super important thing.  It only becomes important when laws dont get revised in the face of important new information.
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nenjin

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17719 on: May 10, 2016, 04:17:01 pm »

I'd disagree that revising a law in light of new information would solve all need or desire for executive interpretation via executive orders. Neither president in the last 16 years really holds up to this example with the executive orders (since afaik most executive orders were not adjustments to existing laws but creating new policies) but, if Congress re-intreprets a law in a way the executive disagrees with, they can simply override that interpretation with an executive order.
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SirQuiamus

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17720 on: May 10, 2016, 04:59:17 pm »

...and by the way, multinational corporations are the most authoritarian entities in the history of everything, and being employed by one is a thousand times worse than working for Hitler. And liberals absolutely love multinational corporations when they progressify and diversity-wash their public images.

Nah, not really buying this.

First up, conservatives absolutely love corporations. They're a major part of the power structure. And you do see conservatives bending over backwards to justify the actions of corporate leaders as good and proper, and downplaying their crimes when they occur. Which is totally in line with what Bob Altermeyer writes about how authoritarians react to challenges to the status quo.
Er, what's this about conservatives? We were talking about what liberals like, and I'm saying they like big and authoritarian corporations almost as much as fiscal conservatives do. It's just that liberals like their megacorps with a dash of progressive chic – Apple is absolutely fabulous but Halliburton is obviously ebul.

Sources of authority include religious, economic, military, law enforcement and government. Notably, it's only really the elected part of this that I see conservatives having any problem with over-reach. The non-elected parts of this power structure seem fine and dandy to most conservatives.
Again, I wasn't talking about conservatives but liberals. The corporate world is a bloody huge source of authority in most people's lives, and so-called "anti-authoritarian" liberals are basically okay with that. Am I wrong? 

Sure, the conservatives have some names they pull out to try and prove they're not 100% sucking the dicks of rich people, but that list of names is very small, and the logic is retarded: rather than the stratified system of wealth and ownership being a problem, it's that one guy George Soros who's responsible for 90% of the problems with America. So a structural / class issue is reduced to "if we could only get rid of that one (Jewish) rotten apple", which prevents people logically thinking through the issue at all. It's a red herring basically.
Soros is the biggest bogeyman of them all for both the far-right and the far-left, naturally because he is – Dun-Dun-Duuun – a progressive liberal!

Quote from: Wikipedya
Soros is a well known supporter of American progressive and American liberal political causes.[12] Between 1979 and 2015 Soros donated more than $11 billion to various philanthropic causes.[13][14] He played a significant role in the peaceful transition from communism to capitalism in Eastern Europe (1984–89)[9] and provided one of Europe's largest higher education endowments to the Central European University in Budapest.[15] Soros is also the chairman of the Open Society Foundations
I have no love for Soros but many "reasonable centrist" people (liberals) seem to think that he's "okay" in some incomprehensible manner.

Meanwhile we have the "liberal" version of authoritarianism, which looks to mainly be concerned with limiting how much power one person can wield over another.
Lol, nope. The managers of big corporations are mostly college-educated liberals who wield absolute authority over their employees, many of whom also happen to be college-educated liberals.

EDIT: But none of that is to say that a new form of Authoritarianism could grow up around what were previously "liberal" ideas. Look at conservative support for some proposals that were previously seen as extreme liberal positions, but have been around so many generations they've become the status quo. Additionally, look at some intolerant campus types for a microcosm of that occurring. Bob Altermeyer writes about how authoritarians like to blend in, to be conventional, to go with the flow. With Political Correctness becoming the dominant ideology on college campuses, many of these same types of personalities could attach themselves to this rather than something else. Because to attach yourself to something unpopular is to stand out, to not be part of the herd, which is against how this personality type thinks. So it's theoretically possible for a progressive movement to be hijacked by the influx of a lot of people who in previous generations would have become conservatives. Getting too popular and mainstream for you own good, basically.
Yes, that's a pretty common hypothesis, and I think there's some truth to it. This does raise the question of why it's called right-wing authoritarianism in the first place, though.

...you do realize he's just mocking the guy who wrote the paper, right?
Half-mocking, half-serious.
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Reelya

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17721 on: May 10, 2016, 05:03:21 pm »

Apple is absolutely fabulous but Halliburton is obviously ebul.

Yeah, how many times have we caught out Apple forcing their workers to run through a hail of bullets (while carrying empty boxes with forged dockets) so the company can make more profits?

Oops, that was a Halliburton thing, wasn't it? The bit where they forced drivers to drive empty trucks around the warzone in Iraq with forged information about what the trucks contained (actually, nothing), and basically threatened drivers if they wouldn't risk life and limb going out when there were bullets flying. This stuff is well documented, with lawsuits and court cases, documentaries and books about it. How is that not evil, when you're deliberately and unnecessarily getting your own workers killed for the sake of profit (and to sell a non-existent product while you're at it)?
http://www.rense.com/general53/vbbr.htm

About 10 minutes into this BBC doco on the Iraq war is the relevant part, background on Halliburton in Iraq, some of their dubious accounting. 20-26 minutes is the bit about the truckers. The amount Halliburton overcharged the US taxpayer is estimated in the billions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sr9e1XT569U

Apple has no record of doing those things, but Haliburton does. They earned their "ebul" status.

Meanwhile, what's Apple got against them? They employ Chinese people. That's about it. Which is arguably a good thing, because it helps poor Chinese people.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 05:29:55 pm by Reelya »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17722 on: May 10, 2016, 05:21:17 pm »

Er, what's this about conservatives? We were talking about what liberals like, and I'm saying they like big and authoritarian corporations almost as much as fiscal conservatives do.
Right-wing liberalism is pretty funny huh

what's Apple got against them? They employ Chinese people.
Disgusting
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17723 on: May 10, 2016, 05:23:44 pm »

if Congress re-intreprets a law in a way the executive disagrees with, they can simply override that interpretation with an executive order.

What?  Executive orders aren't law dude.  You've got it entirely ass backwards.  If Congress doesn't like an executive order, they pass a law or withhold bugeting.  Executive orders only happen within the context of laws already passed and budgets voted on.  The only problem is that congress just keeps passing the same budget and not updating the law.
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TheBiggerFish

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17724 on: May 10, 2016, 05:25:03 pm »

Executive orders have the force of law too?
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 05:34:54 pm by TheBiggerFish »
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17725 on: May 10, 2016, 05:29:40 pm »

The point is they're not imperative and can be ignored. It's only certain cases where an executive order is actually an order.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17726 on: May 10, 2016, 05:32:16 pm »

     An executive order is nothing more than a directive to the Executive Branch that they will enforce regulations in a specific manner. This is used when a given law or court ruling is being ignored entirely (school integration), the existing regulations allow a greater amount of control than is being exercised (EPA controls) or to order an existing law not to be enforced because it is obsolete for the current situation (federal marijuana law, undocumented immigration controls.) They are extremely limited in what they can do, can be overruled entirely by an act of Congress or any federal court, and are an indictable offense if Congress decides they go too far.

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Shadowlord

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17727 on: May 10, 2016, 05:36:28 pm »

...and by the way, multinational corporations are the most authoritarian entities in the history of everything, and being employed by one is a thousand times worse than working for Hitler. And liberals absolutely love multinational corporations when they progressify and diversity-wash their public images.

Nah, not really buying this.

First up, conservatives absolutely love corporations. They're a major part of the power structure. And you do see conservatives bending over backwards to justify the actions of corporate leaders as good and proper, and downplaying their crimes when they occur. Which is totally in line with what Bob Altermeyer writes about how authoritarians react to challenges to the status quo.
Er, what's this about conservatives? We were talking about what liberals like, and I'm saying they like big and authoritarian corporations almost as much as fiscal conservatives do. It's just that liberals like their megacorps with a dash of progressive chic – Apple is absolutely fabulous but Halliburton is obviously ebul.
No I don't.

Sources of authority include religious, economic, military, law enforcement and government. Notably, it's only really the elected part of this that I see conservatives having any problem with over-reach. The non-elected parts of this power structure seem fine and dandy to most conservatives.
Again, I wasn't talking about conservatives but liberals. The corporate world is a bloody huge source of authority in most people's lives, and so-called "anti-authoritarian" liberals are basically okay with that. Am I wrong? 
Not really, no? *points at Bernie Sanders*

Quote from: Wikipedya
Soros is a well known supporter of American progressive and American liberal political causes.[12] Between 1979 and 2015 Soros donated more than $11 billion to various philanthropic causes.[13][14] He played a significant role in the peaceful transition from communism to capitalism in Eastern Europe (1984–89)[9] and provided one of Europe's largest higher education endowments to the Central European University in Budapest.[15] Soros is also the chairman of the Open Society Foundations
I have no love for Soros but many "reasonable centrist" people (liberals) seem to think that he's "okay" in some incomprehensible manner.
Eh? Not sure what you're trying to prove with your quote. Maybe you think all liberals are communists. Maybe you think liberalism = communism = socialism = anything with the word socialism in it. I don't know.

Meanwhile we have the "liberal" version of authoritarianism, which looks to mainly be concerned with limiting how much power one person can wield over another.
Lol, nope. The managers of big corporations are mostly college-educated liberals who wield absolute authority over their employees, many of whom also happen to be college-educated liberals.
[Citation needed]
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17728 on: May 10, 2016, 05:55:55 pm »

Quote
Not really, no? *points at Bernie Sanders*
Left-wing liberalism =/= right-wing liberalism. Most American liberals are fairly right-wing. Sanders is an oddity, and his support comes from the opposite end of the political spectrum.
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Reelya

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #17729 on: May 10, 2016, 06:25:10 pm »

Quote from: Wikipedya
Soros is a well known supporter of American progressive and American liberal political causes.[12] Between 1979 and 2015 Soros donated more than $11 billion to various philanthropic causes.[13][14] He played a significant role in the peaceful transition from communism to capitalism in Eastern Europe (1984–89)[9] and provided one of Europe's largest higher education endowments to the Central European University in Budapest.[15] Soros is also the chairman of the Open Society Foundations
I have no love for Soros but many "reasonable centrist" people (liberals) seem to think that he's "okay" in some incomprehensible manner.

I don't really get the Soros hate or why you'd highlight these things while mentioning you have "no love" for Soros. Are you citing these as bad things he did? A liberal would see a list of good things he's done:

- donating to progressive causes and charities
- helped a peaceful transition from Soviet rule to democratic societies
- donated to higher education funding
- setting up the "Open Society Foundation", which supports tolerance and government accountability.

Rather than being "incomprehensible" the list of things he's done with his money are the very reasons liberals don't mind him too much.

Meanwhile we have the "liberal" version of authoritarianism, which looks to mainly be concerned with limiting how much power one person can wield over another.
Lol, nope. The managers of big corporations are mostly college-educated liberals who wield absolute authority over their employees, many of whom also happen to be college-educated liberals.

You do know that "college-educated liberal" isn't a tautology don't you? Graduation rates for Republican and Democrat voters are pretty much 50/50. If some fields are more to the left, then they must be balanced by other fields which are more to the right. Finance is pretty far to the right. MBAs don't really tend to be liberals either. Sorry, those are just facts.

Plus the fact that out of large political donor corporations they tend to either go 50/50 by party, or 100% to Republicans. There really aren't many major corporations that are all the way Democrat.
http://www.cheatsheet.com/business/10-companies-likely-to-bankroll-2016-presidential-campaigns.html/?a=viewall
« Last Edit: May 10, 2016, 06:56:38 pm by Reelya »
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