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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1550951 times)

Shadowlord

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16470 on: April 15, 2016, 12:50:46 am »

The only difference is that Sander's platform is seen as more unrealistic, but that's not the same as being less specific about what he plans to do.

Saying Citizens United was bad and we need to pass a law to repair the damage it did is pretty clear about what you want; limiting soft money.  It would be helpful to know if we are talking $15k a person, $2100 a person or $0 but the window of discussion is laws setting limits on soft money advertizing.  Saying you want matching funds on small contributions is also pretty straightforward.  Sure the limit of "small" is a matter for debate but we are talking about the feds giving bonus money to candidates who get direct donations.

How you gonna pass a law to take away people's* right to free** speech***?

* corporations, unions, etc
** paid
*** advertisements and propaganda, but apparently an argument for it was:
Quote
Justice Kennedy’s majority opinion said that there was no principled way to distinguish between media corporations and other corporations and that the dissent’s theory would allow Congress to suppress political speech in newspapers, on television news programs, in books and on blogs.

Justice Stevens responded that people who invest in media corporations know “that media outlets may seek to influence elections.” He added in a footnote that lawmakers might now want to consider requiring corporations to disclose how they intended to spend shareholders’ money or to put such spending to a shareholder vote.


And the only way to fix it is to tilt the court in a more liberal direction and then get another case in and hope they overturn Citizens United, like Citizens United overturned two previous Supreme Court decisions: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-supreme-court/494/652.html and https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/02-1674.ZS.html

Citation: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/22/us/politics/22scotus.html
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 12:53:48 am by Shadowlord »
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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16471 on: April 15, 2016, 01:59:55 am »

Or to get Americans to vote for even half-decent representatives so we could get an amendment to make CU illegal.
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Orange Wizard

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16472 on: April 15, 2016, 05:56:34 am »

Or we wait for the revolution

...

Is it bad that I actually kinda want to see a proper revolution in a first-world country? I know we've got shit going down in the Levant, etc., but watching the US descend into anarchy and rise again sporting a tricolour seems morbidly fascinating.
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Antioch

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16473 on: April 15, 2016, 06:36:38 am »

It is such a shame that the American politics are all based on the extremely flawed winner takes all systems.


As soon as there are 3 parties it becomes completely obvious how flawed it is, which will happen in the coming election. Either trump gets the republican nomination, in which case someone more appealing to the "traditional" Republican voters will run third party, or Trump runs third party.

In both cases the Democrats will win without a doubt, which is of course better than a Republican victory, but kind off a sham when it comes to evaluating how good the democracy is functioning.
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16474 on: April 15, 2016, 06:47:08 am »

How you gonna pass a law to take away people's* right to free** speech***?

There are tons of laws still in effect right now that limit speech.
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Strife26

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16475 on: April 15, 2016, 08:36:14 am »

It is such a shame that the American politics are all based on the extremely flawed winner takes all systems.


As soon as there are 3 parties it becomes completely obvious how flawed it is, which will happen in the coming election. Either trump gets the republican nomination, in which case someone more appealing to the "traditional" Republican voters will run third party, or Trump runs third party.

In both cases the Democrats will win without a doubt, which is of course better than a Republican victory, but kind off a sham when it comes to evaluating how good the democracy is functioning.

The benefit of the two party system is that it requires the parties to be broad, flexible coalitions of interests and opinions. I know that everyone loves blaming it for all the evils of the world, but it hasn't brought down the experiment yet.
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smjjames

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16476 on: April 15, 2016, 09:34:39 am »

Anybody know what's up with Sanders visiting the Vatican? Seems like an unusual thing for a presidential candidate to do. I don't care that he is doing that, just wondering out of curiosity.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16477 on: April 15, 2016, 09:36:11 am »

He was invited to a conference thing, and called it a once in a lifetime opportunity.
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Reelya

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16478 on: April 15, 2016, 09:48:16 am »

Instant run-off voting, aka Alternative Vote is just better in every aspect than the "first past the post" (FTFP) system, Strife. It doesn't mean doing away with the two parties, but it means there's room for a third one to grow. It's functionally identical to the regular system, where you put a "1" next to a candidate's name, however you can put e.g. a "2" next to a second candidate's name, and if your first choice gets knock out, your vote transfers to person #2 (and so on). It removes the "spoiler effect", which allows third parties to run candidates without being accused of splitting the vote. You still end up with two main parties, but third parties could get more say, at local and state level, and federally, especially in the senate.

There's basically no downside to the Alternative Vote compared to First Past The Post. And it gives more feedback. Say, the Democrat candidate gets 35% of the vote, the republican gets 45% too, and the local Greens candidates gets 20%, with those 20% of voters putting the Democrat as their #2 choice. If it was "first past the post" the republican would have won, even though more people favored the Democrat, or Green voters would have voted strategically (i.e. not voted for their first-choice "Greens" candidate at all, since that would hand the election to the Republican).

This distorts people's true voting intentions, and loses information in the process unnecessarily. FTFP prevents people from voting for who they really want to, and if they vote for who they really want to, it prevents the election of a candidate that the majority would actually prefer. However, with Alternative Vote, it's public knowledge that 20% of people's true first choice was Green, and this creates more information in the system -it lets elected officials know that people in that area really care about Green issues. Those concerns are invisible when the choice is merely Fascist A and Fascist B ;P
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 10:03:09 am by Reelya »
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Twi

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16479 on: April 15, 2016, 10:17:59 am »

I agree that the voting system is more of a problem than the two-party system itself. Having two parties might not be wrong, but it might be, and it is an inevitable consequence of the voting system either way.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2016, 10:24:17 am by Twi »
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mainiac

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16480 on: April 15, 2016, 10:32:35 am »

The benefit of the two party system is that it requires the parties to be broad, flexible coalitions of interests and opinions. I know that everyone loves blaming it for all the evils of the world, but it hasn't brought down the experiment yet.

I think that a parlimentary system does that more effectively.  The need to have a ruling coalition will make political party leaders join coalitions.  And we see some pretty broad coalitions when needed, like the governments in Greece and Ukraine.  While it's possible that politicians will form coalitions the voters dont want, the voters can punish the leaders for that like with the British liberals getting shreded after they entered a poorly conceived coalition with the conservatives.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Cruxador

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16481 on: April 15, 2016, 11:41:13 am »

Or we wait for the revolution
Waiting isn't how revolutions happen.

Quote
Is it bad that I actually kinda want to see a proper revolution in a first-world country? I know we've got shit going down in the Levant, etc., but watching the US descend into anarchy and rise again sporting a tricolour seems morbidly fascinating.
Yes. Tricolor flags are vexillologically bland and played out.

Anybody know what's up with Sanders visiting the Vatican? Seems like an unusual thing for a presidential candidate to do. I don't care that he is doing that, just wondering out of curiosity.
Well, he was invited to a discussion on something that he considers important. It also may be relevant that Pope Francis is very popular, especially among Christians, and Sanders is a Jew running in a Christian country. Him being invited to this is almost like an endorsement, which Sanders has few of, so it makes sense for him to capitalize on it.

There's basically no downside to the Alternative Vote compared to First Past The Post.
Unless of course you're heavily invested in the two major parties, like the major players in the political establishment are.

Of course, getting this in play is still way more possible than a parliamentary system.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16482 on: April 15, 2016, 01:33:51 pm »

Quote
Is it bad that I actually kinda want to see a proper revolution in a first-world country? I know we've got shit going down in the Levant, etc., but watching the US descend into anarchy and rise again sporting a tricolour seems morbidly fascinating.
Yes. Tricolor flags are vexillologically bland and played out.

We already have the same three colors as France...
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Flying Dice

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16483 on: April 15, 2016, 02:28:02 pm »

Quote
Is it bad that I actually kinda want to see a proper revolution in a first-world country? I know we've got shit going down in the Levant, etc., but watching the US descend into anarchy and rise again sporting a tricolour seems morbidly fascinating.
Yes. Tricolor flags are vexillologically bland and played out.

We already have the same three colors as France...
The French figure out a solution to the immigration crisis...

remove baguette
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Cruxador

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Re: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée
« Reply #16484 on: April 15, 2016, 02:37:26 pm »

Quote
Is it bad that I actually kinda want to see a proper revolution in a first-world country? I know we've got shit going down in the Levant, etc., but watching the US descend into anarchy and rise again sporting a tricolour seems morbidly fascinating.
Yes. Tricolor flags are vexillologically bland and played out.

We already have the same three colors as France...
And the Netherlands. And 33 other nations.
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