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[Willfor]

How did the government cause it though? I've actually never heard this argument, this will be fun.

By not properly regulating credit/derivatives trading

Yes, but that was my argument. Like, was he just agreeing with me and I am drastically misread the post?

For 2008? Oh, there's an EASY narrative for that one. I'm surprised you haven't heard it before. Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, government decides, understandably, that people ought to be housed and puts heavy pressure on the housing market to get people housed, creating a biiiig oooool' bubble of housing purchasing with government funding at its back. But it's not getting paid off. People are getting hiusing loans and other things and they're not being paid off because they can't be paid off, which isn't helped by the government's frantic spending elsewhere creating more and more and more debt for the average consumer. The market is built on an unstable foundation, is growing perilously fast, and is taking the general economy with it, then you tie in loans and the general debt and so much more of the economy is involved... POP. Recession.

I'm not arguing for the truth of this one way or the other because it's a bit too late fir me to get my facts and logic and formulate a proper thesis, but I just want to showcase how EASY it is to make a narrative. You can even have cherrypicked facts alongside it. There really was a severe housing bubble, but its specific place in the issue is what is often debated.

Okay, but that doesn't explain why Canada's banks, with the exact same set of objectives, weathered the storm dramatically well. The regulations in Canada prevented such large scale subprime mortgage purchases. Thus, big government saved the day.

(What ended up hitting us was the US tanking so hard, and being our biggest trading partner. Which is why I voice concern whenever I see problems coming up south of the border. :I )

[Powder Miner]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_Real_Growth.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession
Canada didn't do much better than the United States.

[Sprin]

Yah know

I get minimum wage, I tend to get 300 bucks a paycheck

With one paycheck I can buy a used smartphone

Holy shit there is no wealth for the working class in this country... 9_9

I hope to one day own my own buissness. Idd very much prefer to keep the majority of profits for it please.

[Powder Miner]

Wages here are better than for the vast majority of the world. You can certainly put up strong arguments for injustices everywhere, but we do pay actually quite well here.

[Willfor]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:GDP_Real_Growth.svg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Recession
Canada didn't do much better than the United States.

You're still linking the wrong kind of facts to prove your case though. I said we were hit, but I also gave you the reason why. I lived through it, and I can tell you the exact reason.

Our biggest trading partner had just gotten the shit fucked out of them, and we're an export economy. Please compare bank foreclosures in the 2008-2009 range if you want to actually compare the product of what regulation accomplished.

[Powder Miner]

I'm not trying to prove the narrative, as I said. I only want to state that it's easy to provide a narrative for ANYTHING that supports your belief, and be able to hit most of the major points on the spot with it.

Now, I think there is SOME truth to what I've put up, even if I think it's much much more complex than that, but I don't trust myself to put up a strong argument because it's 1:45. Maybe I'll bring this up later?

[Willfor]

I'm not trying to prove the narrative, as I said. I only want to state that it's easy to provide a narrative for ANYTHING that supports your belief, and be able to hit most of the major points on the spot with it.

Now, I think there is SOME truth to what I've put up, even if I think it's much much more complex than that, but I don't trust myself to put up a strong argument because it's 1:45. Maybe I'll bring this up later?

I probably shouldn't be involved myself, I've got a very busy couple of days of work ahead of me, and the topic will have long moved on by the time I'm back.

[Sprin]

I should hop on this thread more often

So many interesting people

<3

[Rolan7]

Oh this started moving quickly!

I pretty much agree with Flying Dice on this.  Especially:

We tried that. We got the late 1800s.

Though to be fair, I think Sprin backed away from *absolute* laissez-faire.  Which is good, since the best route is probably somewhere between the extremes.

I prefer a capitalism with reasonable safeguards which keep competition alive, protect shared resources like the environment, and provide workers with certain rights.  I think we're definitely too laissez-faire right now... 

Though we have to recognize that harnessing businesses makes them either lose to shitholes like China where workers have no rights, or they just move overseas.  Thanks to our bizarrely unrestricted trade with such countries.

> 7 new replies

Edit:

Yah know

I get minimum wage, I tend to get 300 bucks a paycheck

With one paycheck I can buy a used smartphone

Holy shit there is no wealth for the working class in this country... 9_9

I hope to one day own my own buissness. Idd very much prefer to keep the majority of profits for it please.

... Oh, honey ):

[Powder Miner]

In general, the basis of my political philosophy is that I am super super individualistic. This directly translates in my economic views to wanting a system that encourages people to get on the market and compete, follow their ambitions and all, which basically turns out to be largely laissez faire, though I don't deal in absolutes (I am not a sith).

[Sprin]

That be great tho

Force lightning brah

[Orange Wizard]

Yah know

I get minimum wage, I tend to get 300 bucks a paycheck

With one paycheck I can buy a used smartphone

Holy shit there is no wealth for the working class in this country... 9_9

I hope to one day own my own buissness. Idd very much prefer to keep the majority of profits for it please.

When I was working on minimum wage I earned ~$600 per week, which came out at around $500 after tax and student loan repayments.
Now factor in that I don't need to pay health insurance, if I get sick or injured I will be provided for, and my debt amounts to a quarter of what it would be without govt. funding.
Adjusted for purchasing power, my pay is roughly on par, but in terms of what I don't need to pay... yeah.

[Sprin]

*whistles awkwardlly*

I think we're definitely too laissez-faire right now... 

Tell that to my medication. Hell tell that to the healthcare industry in general.

[Powder Miner]

Free trade isn't great for keeping jobs, I'll admit (even if I don't think it's anywhere close to entirely respomsible for the decline of the rust belt and industrial sector... I could go on and on and on really) But it is AMAZING for the consumer, because things are so much cheaper when they're not tariff'd to hell and back, and a lot easier for the less privileged section of the population to buy. I mean, for all the expressions like "protection of American jobs" and all that, tariffs are literally just making foreign products more expensive, and it's ironic because the party that champions the poor pushes policies that would make things more expensive for them. The increased trade over the market also brings a LOT of money inti the country, and I mean a LOT. Brings a lot into the other countries as well -- look at how NAFTA has vastly increased Mexico's GDP.

[Amperzand]

Capitalism theoretically works great as long as you avoid festering tumors monopolies and other megacorporations. And also introduce enough regulation to stop assholes from killing the planet, wasting natural resources, and ruining communities.

Communism theoretically works great if you can completely avoid corruption.

Dictatorships/monarchies theoretically work great if the guy at the top is a good dude, see Jordan.