Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 1001 1002 [1003] 1004 1005 ... 1342

Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1570886 times)

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15030 on: March 18, 2016, 07:53:11 pm »

We also live in a country with arguably the world's strongest history of representative democracy, while the Weimar republic was extremely fragile and viewed by a majority or near majority of its citizens as completely illegitimate.

Congress currently has an 11 percent approval rating, and while Obama's might be a bit better it hasn't broken 50% in a while. (Currently hovering somewhere between 40-50%)

One of the reasons Trump is getting so much traction is because he's viewed as an outsider.

To be fair, while many people may not like our government, I hear few crying out that it's illegitimate. Yes, I know, some do, but is it any more than the usual amount?

Aside from the republicans being racist towards Obama and thinking that they should have won 2008 and/or 2012 by lightyears, no. Well, theres always the far-far-right fringe....

But yeah, the resemblance stops at the rhetoric, theres tons of things that are different which break the hitler comparison.
Logged

Vector

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15031 on: March 18, 2016, 07:55:56 pm »

Well, if it's true, then I'm relieved; yet I'll still keep studying the history of the war.
Logged
"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

sluissa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15032 on: March 18, 2016, 07:58:17 pm »

People hate their choices, people hate the other choices even more. Just because you're forced to vote for a giant douche over a turd sandwich doesn't mean you WANT them to be your leader. A vote doesn't necessarily mean "legitimate" in peoples mind, it often just means, "I dislike the other choice even more."
Logged

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15033 on: March 18, 2016, 07:58:30 pm »

Honestly, I think that the folks saying that Obama should not nominate the next member of the supreme court and should instead "leave it to the people" are saying something about the illegitimacy of the powers of the presidency.

We've also been having a hell of a lot of arguments, ever since Bush, about the electoral college and representative democracy in general being, well, illegitimate.

The whole SCOTUS thing seems to just be the republicans being republicans than anything about illegitimacy.

As for the whole electoral college stuff, yeah there were some discussions about how to change the system so that it works better, but then 9/11 came and distracted from all that. I didn't really hear anything about the system being 'illegitimate' so much as either 'lets get rid of the electoral college because it's not working' or 'how do we change the system so that it works better'. There was even speculation about some sort of amendment going around.

Nothing got done to change anything AFAIK.

People hate their choices, people hate the other choices even more. Just because you're forced to vote for a giant douche over a turd sandwich doesn't mean you WANT them to be your leader. A vote doesn't necessarily mean "legitimate" in peoples mind, it often just means, "I dislike the other choice even more."

And the two choices this year amount to a douche turd sandwich (from the republican side) vs a douche turd sandwich (from the democrat side). Both of them have pretty low favoribility ratings.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 08:01:36 pm by smjjames »
Logged

Descan

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HEADING INTENSIFIES]
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15034 on: March 18, 2016, 08:05:23 pm »

There's something or other going around the various states, 50% of the needed electoral college have ratified it (so basically 25% of the electoral college) that, regardless of how their individual state votes, they'll put their electors to the winner of the popular vote.

Obviously it doesn't go into effect unless and until they reach that 50% of electoral college.

I think the last state to ratify it was in the last year or so? Maybe in the last three. It was a small one though.
Logged
Quote from: SalmonGod
Your innocent viking escapades for canadian social justice and immortality make my flagellum wiggle, too.
Quote from: Myroc
Descan confirmed for antichrist.
Quote from: LeoLeonardoIII
I wonder if any of us don't love Descan.

TheBiggerFish

  • Bay Watcher
  • Somewhere around here.
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15035 on: March 18, 2016, 08:06:31 pm »

I was thinking about mentioning that but went 'nah.'

@smjjames:Sanders could still win the primary?
Logged
Sigtext

It has been determined that Trump is an average unladen swallow travelling northbound at his maximum sustainable speed of -3 Obama-cubits per second in the middle of a class 3 hurricane.

Bauglir

  • Bay Watcher
  • Let us make Good
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15036 on: March 18, 2016, 08:15:51 pm »

But yeah, the resemblance stops at the rhetoric, theres tons of things that are different which break the hitler comparison.
I mean, okay, what's the bar for being "Hitlery enough"? What is a comparison to you? Because it's sure not an '=' to me.

I mean, look, if you think that any of the rhetoric about Sanders drawing Clinton leftward has merit, doesn't it stand that even a Trump who loses the election could be bad overall? And if many of the reasons that Hitler were bad, such as the xenophobia, egotism (even by political standards), willful misunderstanding of facts, exploitation of outrage, and endorsement of "justified" violence, are traits which Trump shares and which make a considerable contribution to his success so far, why is it an illegitimate comparison to draw? Because he doesn't hate Jews? Because he doesn't exist in a literally identical political atmosphere?

Pointing out differences between Trump and Hitler won't stop me drawing the comparison. Please explain why the similarities I am drawing are untrue or unimportant. If you'd like, I can write an essay explaining why I think they matter, at some point. Probably not immediately, kind of taking a break from writing a different essay entirely to write this post >______>

But, point is, it's a good comparison, as long as you don't treat it like some kind of implied equals sign and you don't get drawn into the same hysteria about Hitler's evilness that made Godwin's Law a necessity in the first place.
Logged
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15037 on: March 18, 2016, 08:20:36 pm »

There's something or other going around the various states, 50% of the needed electoral college have ratified it (so basically 25% of the electoral college) that, regardless of how their individual state votes, they'll put their electors to the winner of the popular vote.

Obviously it doesn't go into effect unless and until they reach that 50% of electoral college.

I think the last state to ratify it was in the last year or so? Maybe in the last three. It was a small one though.

Link? I haven't heard anything about it and that sounds like a decent idea to improve it.

I was thinking about mentioning that but went 'nah.'

@smjjames:Sanders could still win the primary?

He could, theres just a really low chance of him doing so. I saw a video on RCP with Sanders saying that he was going to try and get the superdelegates on his side at the convention, so, anything could happen.

@bauglir: I mean it's not an exact comparison due to loads of historical factors. It's still a good comparison anyway.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 08:23:58 pm by smjjames »
Logged

Bauglir

  • Bay Watcher
  • Let us make Good
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15038 on: March 18, 2016, 08:24:26 pm »

Oh!  :-[

I apparently can't into reading comprehension. Carry on.
Logged
In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

WealthyRadish

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15039 on: March 18, 2016, 08:26:48 pm »

We also live in a country with arguably the world's strongest history of representative democracy, while the Weimar republic was extremely fragile and viewed by a majority or near majority of its citizens as completely illegitimate.

Congress currently has an 11 percent approval rating, and while Obama's might be a bit better it hasn't broken 50% in a while. (Currently hovering somewhere between 40-50%)

One of the reasons Trump is getting so much traction is because he's viewed as an outsider.

It isn't just approval though, it was a major segment of society saying that the November Revolution was completely bogus, the Kaiser should be brought back, and the democratic socialists had stabbed the army in the back and lost the war by making peace. You don't see Republicans saying that Obama did 9/11, and if elected they'll burn the constitution, make the Queen of England head of state, and take revenge on Canada for the war of 1812.

Though that is a platform that I could really get behind.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 08:38:53 pm by UrbanGiraffe »
Logged

Culise

  • Bay Watcher
  • General Nuisance
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15040 on: March 18, 2016, 08:28:19 pm »

There's something or other going around the various states, 50% of the needed electoral college have ratified it (so basically 25% of the electoral college) that, regardless of how their individual state votes, they'll put their electors to the winner of the popular vote.

Obviously it doesn't go into effect unless and until they reach that 50% of electoral college.

I think the last state to ratify it was in the last year or so? Maybe in the last three. It was a small one though.

Link? I haven't heard anything about it and that sounds like a decent idea to improve it.
The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which is an interstate compact because that bypasses the need for anything like a constitutional amendment.  By the bye, you may be hearing more about it fairly soon; if it passes in all states where it's being bounced about in committee right now, it will cover 269 electoral votes, or precisely 50%.  Unfortunately, what it needs is not just 50%, but also an absolute majority (50% + 1).  So if it does pass in all ten states, it'll be like flipping a coin and having it land edge. :P
Of course, hoping for it to not die in committee or fail to pass in all ten might be a bit of a forlorn shot.

EDIT:
Oh, and the last state to ratify it was New York in 2014.  Descan is almost certainly thinking of Rhode Island in 2013, so that should be a pleasant update.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2016, 08:31:50 pm by Culise »
Logged

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15041 on: March 18, 2016, 08:31:33 pm »

People hate their choices, people hate the other choices even more. Just because you're forced to vote for a giant douche over a turd sandwich doesn't mean you WANT them to be your leader. A vote doesn't necessarily mean "legitimate" in peoples mind, it often just means, "I dislike the other choice even more."

But disliking the political establishment also doesn't mean you are amenable to the idea of a fascist dictatorship either.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

smjjames

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15042 on: March 18, 2016, 08:37:59 pm »

There's something or other going around the various states, 50% of the needed electoral college have ratified it (so basically 25% of the electoral college) that, regardless of how their individual state votes, they'll put their electors to the winner of the popular vote.

Obviously it doesn't go into effect unless and until they reach that 50% of electoral college.

I think the last state to ratify it was in the last year or so? Maybe in the last three. It was a small one though.

Link? I haven't heard anything about it and that sounds like a decent idea to improve it.
The National Popular Vote Interstate Compact, which is an interstate compact because that bypasses the need for anything like a constitutional amendment.  By the bye, you may be hearing more about it fairly soon; if it passes in all states where it's being bounced about in committee right now, it will cover 269 electoral votes, or precisely 50%.  Unfortunately, what it needs is not just 50%, but also an absolute majority (50% + 1).  So if it does pass in all ten states, it'll be like flipping a coin and having it land edge. :P
Of course, hoping for it to not die in committee or fail to pass in all ten might be a bit of a forlorn shot.

EDIT:
Oh, and the last state to ratify it was New York in 2014.  Descan is almost certainly thinking of Rhode Island in 2013, so that should be a pleasant update.

It'd just mean that it won't go into effect this year, I think, and I guess a constitutional amendment would be a possible next step to sort of put it down in stone, so to speak.
Logged

sluissa

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15043 on: March 18, 2016, 08:40:49 pm »

People hate their choices, people hate the other choices even more. Just because you're forced to vote for a giant douche over a turd sandwich doesn't mean you WANT them to be your leader. A vote doesn't necessarily mean "legitimate" in peoples mind, it often just means, "I dislike the other choice even more."

But disliking the political establishment also doesn't mean you are amenable to the idea of a fascist dictatorship either.

It never starts out as a fascist dictatorship...
Logged

mainiac

  • Bay Watcher
  • Na vazeal kwah-kai
    • View Profile
Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #15044 on: March 18, 2016, 08:54:38 pm »


I mean, look, if you think that any of the rhetoric about Sanders drawing Clinton leftward has merit, doesn't it stand that even a Trump who loses the election could be bad overall?

Democrats who oppose Sanders like what he wants but oppose his plan.  You can think that singlepayer is a good idea but not like campaigning on it when you haven't earmarked enough revenue and you can't get it through congress.  Republicans who oppose Trump are repelled by what he wants.  They either think he is a fraud and a con man or he is dangerous.  Trump is a warning sign for the republican leadership that draws their attention to problems they have been ignoring.

It never starts out as a fascist dictatorship...

So what?  Redking isn't going to become a fan of fascism as an alternative to the two party system after three or four months.
Logged
Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.
Pages: 1 ... 1001 1002 [1003] 1004 1005 ... 1342