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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1571079 times)

penguinofhonor

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13980 on: March 09, 2016, 01:50:41 pm »

This is a supernatural amount of anti-Bernie articles. The only person we know of who opposes Bernie Sanders and has access to powerful dark magic is Hillary Clinton, so clearly she is the culprit here.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13981 on: March 09, 2016, 02:04:56 pm »

@Lord Shonus:

I live in Silicon Valley, grew up here, and attended college here. It is an absolute toxic mess. I mean really obscene.

It may not be as bad other places, but things usually get worse as the stakes increase, in areas with more opportunity. There's not a lot of math-field sexism in the local community colleges, for example ("27-year-old single mom can do algebra" doesn't threaten the status quo very much), but the local university is a fucking nightmare and becoming notorious enough across the US that women are quietly refusing offers for the PhD program.

Ah. That explains a lot. We were told when we graduated (engineering) high school to turn down any scholarship offers from California.
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Man, ninja'd by a potentially inebriated Lord Shonus. I was gonna say to burn it.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13982 on: March 09, 2016, 02:18:45 pm »

Let's be real here, nobody really wants to spend their lives in Cali, they just do.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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Bauglir

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13983 on: March 09, 2016, 02:38:43 pm »

if it helps i've seen casual sexism on occasion in academia in the midwest, and i'm not in the demographic receiving most of it (and so am presumably missing some thanks to my reclusive habits)

mostly in political science, though. i suspect because it's the only department with a high enough density of women for there to be many occasions for me to notice - if a friend of mine in physics the next state over is to be believed, though, that's probably because the experience for women in harder* fields is bad enough to drive them into other majors while they're still undergrads unless they're ferociously dedicated. she did her bachelor's in new england, so also has exposure to two different regions, while i've only got the one

so there's one to two more data points for the anecdote, depending on how you want to count them

*as opposed to soft, not easy
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:43:26 pm by Bauglir »
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

Geltor

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13984 on: March 09, 2016, 02:44:56 pm »

As opposed to what women in STEM will tell you, which is:

The discrimination was so intense that I decided to leave, because I was being sexually harassed to the point where I didn't feel safe coming to work and my skills were being undervalued and there was zero probability of being promoted when guys kept being credited for my work, so I decided to go into a different field despite years and years and years of professional training, because it was just that bad.
this made me spend a good while laughing as i imagined men, in the image of groundskeeper willie, retelling their depression-filled story of how they were sexually harassed and discriminated against in his hostile work environment by other female kindergarten teachers.
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Vector

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13985 on: March 09, 2016, 02:47:52 pm »

Math bachelor's degrees are being awarded to women at a rate of 44%. Chemistry is about 50-50. Biology is female-dominated. Computer science degrees are a little bit lower. Physics and mechanical engineering are where women really aren't getting the degrees.

I should know something about that. I have a math degree, and I am in fact a paid mathematical researcher.

Of course, now we can argue that women are not getting as high-quality degrees as men are. Their bachelor's degrees count for less because they're not really mastering the material.

And if they really were mastering the material, it's introductory material. Women don't just tinker around with stuff and have hobbies like men do. They have other interests. Women are too social to master difficult technical material. They aren't obsessively single-minded. They like stuff like shopping, and makeup, and babies.

(and beer, and woodworking, and football, and sitting around scratching their testicles while they watch somebody else do the housework)

And if they master the more difficult material, they don't have the creative genius necessary. To demonstrate this, we'll turn to statistical data.

There are more men with high IQs out there than women with high IQs, more deviation in the bell curve. There's a whole scientifically sourced book out there on this topic called, appropriately, The Bell Curve, which, being about science and statistics on a subject that was developed for the express purpose of proving that women are feeble-minded animals and that immigrants should be Kept Out of the country and Jews should be gassed, is objective. Thanks, Goddard and Yerkes!

But I think that's moving the goalposts. Here I am, talking about Hitler again. Whoops.


this made me spend a good while laughing as i imagined men, in the image of groundskeeper willie, retelling their depression-filled story of how they were sexually harassed and discriminated against in his hostile work environment by other female kindergarten teachers.

i definitely wrote this just for you, babe, you're not an excuse to post it.



Well, anyway, but we're off topic, which was about why Hillary sucks. Shall we get back to it?

This is a supernatural amount of anti-Bernie articles. The only person we know of who opposes Bernie Sanders and has access to powerful dark magic is Hillary Clinton, so clearly she is the culprit here.

Seriously, there's no reason why anyone would want to vote for her if they were familiar with Bernie Sanders' policies. She must be personally making it so that they don't understand him when he talks about his policies on national platforms like Fox News.

... whoops, I guess I lied about that [/sarc] earlier. I guess even the sarc mark was sarcastic!


Let's be real here, nobody really wants to spend their lives in Cali, they just do.

actually, I like it here? My family's been here for six generations.



... I should probably not post for a while. I'm going to actually go and do that math I threatened to do.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13986 on: March 09, 2016, 02:52:18 pm »

I'm very much enjoying these rants.  It's very cathartic to me.  Probably because I was never very good at righteous fury myself so it's nice seeing someone else fill the need.

Vector gets the a MainiacCookie TM in recognition of holistic thinking.  At any point in the future she may quote this post and I will shut up in ongoing debate of any of the following topics:

1) Sexism
2) Race
3) Primary politics
4) Popular statistics
5) Bayesian inferance
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 02:54:50 pm by mainiac »
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Reelya

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13987 on: March 09, 2016, 02:54:46 pm »

Read carefully: I'm not attacking the statistic - indeed I agreed that it does tell us that something is wrong. I'm attacking the way the statistic is used - I do hope you're not flat-out claiming that there is no way to use technically correct statistics to mislead people.
Oh, sure, and that's fine in principle, I think. I dispute that it's actually used that way as often as you say, but that's a different thing I'm not prepared to back up. And there are cases where it is, I won't deny that either.

I'm more objecting to sluissa's apparent argument that there isn't a "real" wage gap, which 3/4 of those sources seem to be supporting. Only Politifact allows that the statistic actually has worth. Should've made that clear!

I won't deny there's a wage gap, I even said that I have no problem with that statement. My argument is against what that wage gap means. As some people have put it, it does NOT mean that having a penis gets you more money. And that the apparent solution to all of this is not simply a flat "give women higher wages."

There are a lot of factors, some of them are a result of choices women tend to make and some a result of circumstance, bad luck, and traditional expectations of women in society. I'm more for fighting the latter than the former, but even the former needs some attention.

The real problem is that if you don't dig down into the data then you end up proposing suboptimal solutions that don't tackle the underlying issue. And it feels like most of the social/political capital is being invested in tackling this "directly". There's already the Equal Pay Act 1963 which means anyone literally paying 77 cents / dollar to women would be a criminal and open their company up to massive lawsuits. Let's say that hypothetically 50% of company are not breaking the 1963 law. Well, then to get to the "77 cents" average the remaining 50% of companies must be paying women even worse - about 50 cents in the dollar. And you can bet that if any sizable number of companies were paying women half what they pay men in the same role, then it would be front page news with huge ongoing lawsuits. This behavior is already flat-out illegal. Adding a new Equal Pay Act isn't going to make any difference that the existing one isn't.

But that doesn't make the 77 cents figure meaningless, it just means that what I wrote above isn't the cause. If you dig down and see what factors lead to it, you can create effective policies to reduce it. My feeling is that the "headline" nature of the deal is preventing the social and political capital from actually dealing with the problem. If you do break it down then women without kids have a negligible pay gap. But that just means that married/with kids women have an even greater pay gap than 77 cents. They probably really earn around 60 cents to the man's dollar. So you see, by not properly breaking down the problem and targeting an actual solution, you're doing a double disservice to the women who actually have a much greater pay gap than 77 cents.

Ironically, maternity leave actually makes the problem worse. Having only maternity leave (especially paid maternity leave) actually increases the gender pay gap for multiple reasons:
- it financially encourages women to take leave from the workforce when they have kids
- it means companies with a higher proportion of women end up with higher operating costs, as they must pay more in supplemental benefits when some women decide to use their maternity leave. This negatively affects pay or pay rises for everyone in the company, regardless of whether they have kids.
Basically, worldwide, there's a correlation between maternity leave and a rising pay gap, and an industry with mainly women who are forced to implement paid maternity leave will see falling profits therefore falling pay vs industries who don't have to pay for this: basically the all-men industries are getting indirectly subsidized childcare from the all-women industries. This is probably the single biggest factor in the wage gap.

So, if your only policies are an Equal Pay law and a basic Paid Parental Leave program, the first one will do very little that the Equal Pay Act 1963 isn't already doing, and the second one will be overwhelmingly used by women: which will be welcomed by the women who use it, but ultimately mean the "headline" pay gap widens...

There is a solution: don't propose things that will ultimately steer women away from paid work, like a Paid Parental Leave program that doesn't do anything to deal with underlying social issues of why it's women who take almost all the parental leave. Sweden has already realized this, and they've instituted mandatory Paid Paternal Leave. e.g. each couple gets half the leave each. If only one partner takes leave, the family misses out on benefits. This has changed the work culture and lead to 85% of Swedish dads taking parental leave, and meaning a much more level playing field for men and women's careers.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2016, 03:17:00 pm by Reelya »
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Bauglir

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13988 on: March 09, 2016, 02:58:34 pm »

I'm very much enjoying these rants.  It's very cathartic to me.  Probably because I was never very good at righteous fury myself so it's nice seeing someone else fill the need.
nah man, you were always pretty good at it, it's just that for some reason people take things pretty personally with you

says the dude who's done that too many times >________________>
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In the days when Sussman was a novice, Minsky once came to him as he sat hacking at the PDP-6.
“What are you doing?”, asked Minsky. “I am training a randomly wired neural net to play Tic-Tac-Toe” Sussman replied. “Why is the net wired randomly?”, asked Minsky. “I do not want it to have any preconceptions of how to play”, Sussman said.
Minsky then shut his eyes. “Why do you close your eyes?”, Sussman asked his teacher.
“So that the room will be empty.”
At that moment, Sussman was enlightened.

sluissa

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13989 on: March 09, 2016, 03:01:28 pm »

Math bachelor's degrees are being awarded to women at a rate of 44%. Chemistry is about 50-50. Biology is female-dominated. Computer science degrees are a little bit lower. Physics and mechanical engineering are where women really aren't getting the degrees.

I should know something about that. I have a math degree, and I am in fact a paid mathematical researcher.

Of course, now we can argue that women are not getting as high-quality degrees as men are. Their bachelor's degrees count for less because they're not really mastering the material.

And if they really were mastering the material, it's introductory material. Women don't just tinker around with stuff and have hobbies like men do. They have other interests. Women are too social to master difficult technical material. They aren't obsessively single-minded. They like stuff like shopping, and makeup, and babies.

(and beer, and woodworking, and football, and sitting around scratching their testicles while they watch somebody else do the housework)

And if they master the more difficult material, they don't have the creative genius necessary. To demonstrate this, we'll turn to statistical data.

There are more men with high IQs out there than women with high IQs, more deviation in the bell curve. There's a whole scientifically sourced book out there on this topic called, appropriately, The Bell Curve, which, being about science and statistics on a subject that was developed for the express purpose of proving that women are feeble-minded animals and that immigrants should be Kept Out of the country and Jews should be gassed, is objective. Thanks, Goddard and Yerkes!

But I think that's moving the goalposts. Here I am, talking about Hitler again. Whoops.



Vector, not only good at talking but also good at putting words in other peoples mouths.

Bit of a chip on your shoulder there, eh?

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... I should probably not post for a while. I'm going to actually go and do that math I threatened to do.

Bye then.
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origamiscienceguy

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13990 on: March 09, 2016, 03:02:50 pm »

So, has the establishment given up on Rubio yet?
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Vector

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13991 on: March 09, 2016, 03:04:02 pm »

Yep, I've got a chip on my shoulder. I wonder how it got there.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

mainiac

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13992 on: March 09, 2016, 03:04:09 pm »

@Reelya
It's amazing how the people whose work arrived at a conclusion you dont agree with always with such perfect consistancy are single minded zealots whose work doesn't have any subtlety in it.

This is why there are so many bill in congress which make the kneejerk reaction that ya just pass a fucking law and the problem is over.  I mean look at the paid leave provisions that Hillary and Bernie are proposing.  CLEARLY these people are just blurring everything together, amirite?

And it's similarly amazing, Reelya, how your side completely doesn't blur the lines.  I mean we know that no one in America ever has claimed that the pay gap is 100% womens fault and they should shut up, right?  I'd offer sarcastic sources but well, I feel dead inside after I go to websites like that.

Vector, not only good at talking but also good at putting words in other peoples mouths.

Bit of a chip on your shoulder there, eh?

OMG, vector!  Why are you telling other people what they think?
You only talk like that because you are mean and angry!

Tell me, are you LARPing here?  Is this an attempt at parody?

So, has the establishment given up on Rubio yet?

I doubt they will as there is no down side to holding out.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

sluissa

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13993 on: March 09, 2016, 03:11:19 pm »

Yep, I've got a chip on my shoulder. I wonder how it got there.

Probably that whole living in California thing. Look into changing that.
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WealthyRadish

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Re: Donald J. Trump's Jet Fuel Can't Melt Steel Beams 2016 Megathread
« Reply #13994 on: March 09, 2016, 03:15:31 pm »

This is a supernatural amount of anti-Bernie articles. The only person we know of who opposes Bernie Sanders and has access to powerful dark magic is Hillary Clinton, so clearly she is the culprit here.

I just wanted to interrupt this argument to point out this was a really quality shitpost. When you start reading it, the word "supernatural" seems odd, but it's close enough to what someone would really say that it passes as a plausible word to use in a serious post. When Act II rolls around, Act I was effective enough in creating the possibility of seriousness that "powerful dark magic" can still be considered figuratively acceptable, setting up the astonishing coup de grâce that is Act III, where any remaining illusions are shattered with the lightest touch of irony necessary to make to confirm absolutely that it's a shitpost.
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