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[Grim Portent]

I'm troubled that people compare "Returning illegal immigrants to their country of citizenship" with "Rounding up a race of citizens and murdering them in ovens".  No amount of "technically it's different buuuut" makes that comparison valid.

And the Nazis did not start with the plan to kill people either, they originally intended to ship them all to other nations. Indeed they tried to do just that with the Jews at first, but Britain had caps on how many could be sent to Israel at once that resulted in a backlog. Then when the war broke out the Nazis were faced with the issue of how to deal with a large number of people that weren't part of the war effort but still using up resources. The initial idea is much the same, and the former can lead to the latter, and has done so in the past.

That has to end, and giving them citizenship is the practical way.  Fair or not.
A mass deportation would be justice, but it would be a trainwreck comparable to prohibition or the war on drugs.  Possibly worse.

I'd argue that mass deportation would not be justice any more than letting them continue to work for less that minimum wage is. The actual just solution in my mind would be to put them through the citizenship process but cover all the relevant costs involved using money taken from the people/corporations that were illegally employing them. That allows the people who were being exploited to have the protections that should have been afforded to them as workers and punishes those guilty of wrongdoing by making them pay for employing people they should not have employed.

[Baffler]

I'm troubled that people compare "Returning illegal immigrants to their country of citizenship" with "Rounding up a race of citizens and murdering them in ovens".  No amount of "technically it's different buuuut" makes that comparison valid.

True, but let's also not forget that any measures of this type would necessarily have a racist component: They'll be hunting down Mexican-looking folks to deport them, since illegal aliens aren't registered pretty much by definition. On the scale we're talking about, due process will necessarily fall by the wayside, leading to the deportation of American citizens because of their Latino ethnicity. And you can bet your sweet ass that they won't be rounding up white folks because they might be illegal immigrants from Canada.

Just because it's not explicitly racist doesn't make it not implicitly so.

Mexico has laws tougher than even Arizona on immigration, lots of people from Central America stop there instead of going to the USA because it's still better than where they were and the culture is more familiar. They deport more people than the USA some years, yet nobody Ive spoken about it with so far sees the slightest problem with this (if they even know about it) because they aren't white. If you're gonna call people racist, it certainly cuts both ways.

[Loud Whispers]

And the Nazis did not start with the plan to kill people either, they originally intended to ship them all to other nations. Indeed they tried to do just that with the Jews at first, but Britain had caps on how many could be sent to Israel at once that resulted in a backlog. Then when the war broke out the Nazis were faced with the issue of how to deal with a large number of people that weren't part of the war effort but still using up resources. The initial idea is much the same, and the former can lead to the latter, and has done so in the past.
I'd argue that mass deportation would not be justice any more than letting them continue to work for less that minimum wage is. The actual just solution in my mind would be to put them through the citizenship process but cover all the relevant costs involved using money taken from the people/corporations that were illegally employing them. That allows the people who were being exploited to have the protections that should have been afforded to them as workers and punishes those guilty of wrongdoing by making them pay for employing people they should not have employed.

Oh wow, blaming Nazis blamming Jews on a British backlog, that's one I haven't heard before. Nah m8 the Nazis wanted to send them to Madagascar, and they couldn't because they needed the Royal Navy, which they didn't have because the British refused to surrender even though everyone was starving to death. And though Trump is not a Nazi, HE COULD BE
WITH HIS JEWISH DAUGHTER BEING HIS ENFORCER, THE PERFECT CRIME

Though tbh your police indiscriminately kill everyone every now and then anyways I'm not sure if you'd actually notice death squads

[Bauglir]

If the argument is that Trump's proposal resembles Nazi proposals, and the Nazi proposals in question were mass deportation, and Trump's proposals are mass deportation, that seems like a fair comparison. Yes, the Nazi behavior escalated into mass murder, but that's not really the claim that's being made. It might be worth saying, "Hey, watch out, this is a way this sort of thing has historically gone", but obviously it wouldn't be sensible to set the bar for the comparison at proposing outright genocide publicly since not even the Nazis made that a platform issue.

Avoiding Godwin's Law isn't just about avoiding reference to the Nazis. An important component is to recognize that similarities aren't the automatic proof of evil that many people want them to be. The comparison needs more substantial argumentation behind it that demonstrates why the particular point of comparison was evil in the Nazi context, which is clearly present here: "The Nazis began by proposing mass deportation, based on xenophobic rhetoric and apparent economic threats to natives, which inspired hatred that allowed escalation to extermination when the original plan didn't work. Trump is proposing mass deportation, based on xenophobic rhetoric and apparent economic threats to natives, so we should expect that escalation is a possible outcome here."

EDIT: I guess what I'm trying to say is, assuming "Any Nazi comparison is automatically a claim that Trump will inevitably push for a genocide and that the comparison is therefore invalid because he's clearly not doing that" is falling for the same trick that people who make the fallacious comparisons in the first place fell for. You're reducing the entire historical context of the Nazis to a single fact and using that as the measuring stick for every comparison somebody might want to make. That's silly.

[Helgoland]

Mexico has laws tougher than even Arizona on immigration, lots of people from Central America stop there instead of going to the USA because it's still better than where they were and the culture is more familiar. They deport more people than the USA some years, yet nobody Ive spoken about it with so far sees the slightest problem with this (if they even know about it) because they aren't white. If you're gonna call people racist, it certainly cuts both ways.

Hey, I'm not calling the current US approach racist! I'm saying that what Trump proposes necessarily would lead to large-scale racist outgrowths. Mexico isn't trying to round up all immigrants and send them home over the wall they want to build, right? Else I may have missed the memo on the solución final...

[Reelya]

Hmm one issue is that 4 million+ children who are legal citizens in the USA have parents who are illegal. So we're going to bust into houses, round up 11 million parents, quickly deport them, and then stick millions of kids into institutions or foster homes?

Kinda sounds expensive and stupid. Well, we could amend it to "let's kick out the kids, too". But would we kick over over-18s who parents happen to be illegal or only little kids? Kinda sounds massively douchy.

[Helgoland]

And you'd - once again - be deporting citizens.

[Loud Whispers]

If the argument is that Trump's proposal resembles Nazi proposals, and the Nazi proposals in question were mass deportation, and Trump's proposals are mass deportation, that seems like a fair comparison.

No, because then we'd be talking about deporting loads of people who are indistinguishable from your people and have lived there legally since time immemorial vs people who have illegally immigrated to your country

EVERYONE IS HITLER

Which is why I support assisted suicide

Yes, the Nazi behavior escalated into mass murder, but that's not really the claim that's being made.

If you compare someone with Josef Stalin you're not exactly doing so out of appreciation for the Siberian cheese industry's collapse

That's silly.

And you're Hitler

[Reelya]

Well, the parents could elect to take the kids with them, but there's an issue there: the children may be eligible for citizenship in their parent's native country, but that doesn't mean they have citizenship. So if the US Government doesn't want to take financial responsibility for feeding and housing millions of these kids, then they need to go through a very lengthy application process through the home country's immigration department. We're taking months or years for that to get done when they have million+ applications to process. And the deportees themselves, well the government you're returning them to usually requires proof that these people are in fact Mexican citizens. Overloading Mexico's immigration system with ~15 million applications: that sounds like it could take decades. And the State pays for their upkeep the whole time.

[Bauglir]

No, because then we'd be talking about deporting loads of people who are indistinguishable from your people and have lived there legally since time immemorial vs people who have illegally immigrated to your country

i don't see how that's relevant, but i guess that's your business

folks can stir up whatever tribal boundaries they want, but i'm not inclined to privilege any of them with "okay, that's a fair line to draw when figuring out who to put in camps"

it's the camps i take issue with

you won't placate me by finding the right set of folks to just j-j-jam in there

[Loud Whispers]

i don't see how that's relevant, but i guess that's your business

I don't see how we're not when we're calling everyone Hitler and sincerely believing that is not an attempt at comparing someone with Hitler

folks can stir up whatever tribal boundaries they want, but i'm not inclined to privilege any of them with "okay, that's a fair line to draw when figuring out who to put in camps"

It was my privilege to invoke this Hitlerious thought, everyone is entitled to your country otherwise you begin putting people in concentration camps by instinct

*EDIT
I reply to this too fast now I must edit reply to your edit reply

it's the camps i take issue with
you won't placate me by finding the right set of folks to just j-j-jam in there

Make fast deportation like the Germans (under Merkel) instead of concentration like the Germans (under Merkel)

[Bauglir]

i cannot parse your post into something that makes sense

that's not an insult, i think you've just delved too greedily and too deep into your own particular brand of wit - would you mind giving it another shot?

[Egan_BW]

Someone is doing all the shitposting, and it's not me.
#DeportLW

[mainiac]

Someone is doing all the shitposting, and it's not me.
#DeportLW

And I wasn't even involved

I need to take this thread back!

Y'all are hobos!  Stupid smelly hobos!

[Loud Whispers]

i cannot parse your post into something that makes sense
that's not an insult, i think you've just delved too greedily and too deep into your own particular brand of wit - would you mind giving it another shot?

Basically saying deport fast (hence the term mass), comparing to Hitler is like comparing to Stalin (inseparable from atrocities, saying illegal migrants are not entitled to your country =/= holocaust mkII), comparisons are useful when comparing to Merkel (who is Hitler) as she deports people very quickly and the only time she puts people in former concentration camps (not a joke) is when accommodating people she is not deporting (worse than Trump who is also Hitler).

Someone is doing all the shitposting, and it's not me.
#DeportLW

Statistically whilst I am overrepresented others do more shitposting so you need to check your shitlord privilege as I am just a shitpleb