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[mainiac]

A good example of the "Fuck you too, buddy" tactic would be Russia right now.  And it's worth pointing out that the impact of active sanctions on Russia is less bad then the impact of EU monetary policy on Greece.  Greece would gladly trade it's unemployment problems and lack of access to capital or markets for Russia's inflation and lack of access to capital or markets.

[Helgoland]

I meant before 208/2010, mainiac. Doctoring their books to get into the Eurozone for example.

[mainiac]

Yeah that was fraud.  It wasn't a powerplay, just fraud.

[Wolfhunter107]

Argentine judge orders oil company assets seized

Expect to see more stuff like this in the news, as their election season is coming up soon.

[Helgoland]

Yeah that was fraud.  It wasn't a powerplay, just fraud.

And this tells us what about the relationship between the Eurozone countries?

[FearfulJesuit]

Yeah that was fraud.  It wasn't a powerplay, just fraud.

And this tells us what about the relationship between the Eurozone countries?

Yeah, at this point I'm having trouble faulting the rest of the Eurozone for wanting to kick Greece out of the Euro and leave it to its fate. You commit fraud and cook the books to join the club, you shouldn't be surprised when it comes back to bite you in the ass later on. And if you keep Greece hanging around, it's just going to create headaches for the entire union every few years. It's much better to cut the cord and let it drop; once it's on the drachma it can take the required steps to become competitive again, since it will have control of its currency.

The real object lesson here, I think, is that monetary union without fiscal union is a bad idea, and the only way to really fix the underlying issue is to either have a federal European government or to dissolve the euro. After the fiascos that have taken place since 2008, I can't imagine the economic powerhouses of the Eurozone will have much appetite for the first option (since it would basically entail a perpetual bailout of Portugal, Spain, Romania, etc. with German, Dutch and French money, just as American federal spending bails out Alabama and West Virginia with Californian and east-coast tax money), and the union's underdogs will never vote for the second. The only real way to fix the Euro, I suspect, is to time-travel to 1999 and scrap the whole thing.

[mainiac]

Yeah that was fraud.  It wasn't a powerplay, just fraud.

And this tells us what about the relationship between the Eurozone countries?

That they are extremely shortsighted and judgmental?  Greece screwed up.  Many, many countries have screwed up in the past.  There are consequences.

If Germany had been treated this harshly in the 20s and 50s then we wouldn't be having this discussion because you wouldn't have internet or goddamn electricity.

Money should be slave to mankind, not the other way around.

[FearfulJesuit]

Yeah that was fraud.  It wasn't a powerplay, just fraud.

And this tells us what about the relationship between the Eurozone countries?

That they are extremely shortsighted and judgmental?  Greece screwed up.  Many, many countries have screwed up in the past.  There are consequences.

If Germany had been treated this harshly in the 20s and 50s then we wouldn't be having this discussion because you wouldn't have internet or goddamn electricity.

Money should be slave to mankind, not the other way around.

But Weimar Germany signed on to the reparations at Versailles at gunpoint. Greece entered the Eurozone of its own free will and lied about its public finances to do so.

I don't like austerity and regret that the Greece situation has come to this, but let's not pretend Greece has been an agentless pawn.

[Reelya]

Totally different to Weimar too. Weimar Germany had to pay reparations for WWI.

Whereas Greece has to suck Euro dick to get more handouts. The situations are not comparable. They can always not get the handouts, nobody is forcing money on them.

A comparable situation would be a welfare recipient who quit their job rankling because the welfare office demands they look for work. You always have the choice of not asking for the welfare money. If you want the welfare money, you play by the rules of those who are giving it to you.

[lijacote]

Totally different to Weimar too. Weimar Germany had to pay reparations for WWI.

Whereas Greece has to suck Euro dick to get more handouts. The situations are not comparable. They can always not get the handouts, nobody is forcing money on them.

A comparable situation would be a welfare recipient who quit their job rankling because the welfare office demands they look for work. You always have the choice of not asking for the welfare money. If you want the welfare money, you play by the rules of those who are giving it to you.

The path to refusing this "help" offered by so many profit-seeking investors isn't simple, when it's a state that's responsible for the choice. Of course they should refuse, but it's a political challenge to get that point.

[Sheb]

The fact that the Greek messed up doesn't change the fact that the ongoing suffering is the result of the policies favored by the Troika. The punishment is entirely out of relation with the crime.

[wierd]

Has history taught you nothing?

Those with power will exercise it. Money is a form of power. Those with the money are exercising the power of that money. They dont give a flying fuck about suffering in Greece. They care only about their financial bottom lines.

I foresee similar civil atrociousness with the US's love affair with big multinational corporations.

[Reelya]

The fact that the Greek messed up doesn't change the fact that the ongoing suffering is the result of the policies favored by the Troika. The punishment is entirely out of relation with the crime.

First, up, punishment and crime are the wrong way to look at it. Punishment for a crime is something forced on you, being given conditions for someone else bailing you out is not a punishment by any stretch of the imagination. If you're a gambler and rack up big debts, are you being punished because the guy bailing out your bills demands you stop gambling?

Second, the Greeks will definitely have to balance their budget. Otherwise you'll be dumping money down the chute forever. No-one can do that. A little pain now will definitely prevent more pain later.

The Greek Prime Minister claims that the bailout has "destroyed" Greece due to austerity. But that makes no sense. Without the bailout money to spend, the austerity would have been far greater.

[lijacote]

We can hope that the re-balancing will involve nationalisation of key industry, of banks, of taxes levied on the rich and controls on capital, a revitalisation of labour...

[Sheb]

Except they can't be expected to balance their budgets when you force contractionist policies on them. They already have a primary surplus, despite loosing a quarter of their output.