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Author Topic: Murrican Politics Megathread 2016: There Will Be Hell Toupée  (Read 1547853 times)

Reelya

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1500 on: April 19, 2015, 10:31:54 am »

Or just call for an end to all offensive action. Or just acknowledge that killing conscripts is also, y'know, bad, regardless as to if your forces are voluntary or not. Or as Sheb mentions. Any other dozen things. False dichotomy and whatnot.

I will say that from what I recall of US (human, really) history, though, I'm incredibly damn doubtful having a draft would notably impede the difficulty in starting military conflicts. Major powers in general don't really become less belligerent or militarily adventurous when they're using conscripts/draftees, from everything I can remember.
Hitler certainly never used conscription. Certainly not.

And he didn't start any wars, right?

wierd

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1501 on: April 19, 2015, 11:41:57 am »

When you think about it rationally, the very concept of war is absurd.

War is what you get when you have a situation where one or more of the following is true, and neither side is willing to relent. (Note, this focuses on how wars get STARTED, not how they are mutually consummated-- this focuses on the aggressor, not the defender.)

1) A vital resource is available to one side, but not the other
2) A leader feels threatened by the actions of another leader
3) An ideology is at odds with another ideology

All of those can be reconciled through non-violent means, in nearly all cases. The trend mainiac is referring to is simply world leaders realizing that they can get their perks without resorting to scorched earth as their first option.

Going to war is the single most stupid thing a nation can do. It wastes tremendous amounts of resources, capital, human lives, and intellectual potential, just so some base (or worse, ephemeral!) thing can be accomplished, which is often simply not worth the expense when looked back on.

Take for instance, the infamous world wars.  In WW1, we had an ideologically "tense" region go up in flames because of the tipping point of the assassination of the arch duke.  This produced route #2 in my list-- a leader was threatened by the actions of another leader, but was itself caused by item #3, clashing ideologies that refuse to reconcile.  Entire nations were destroyed in WW1, because some people just couldn't get along. Was it worth it?  Then you have WW2.  Germany was in shambles after WW1; it was hobbled by political edicts from outside nations that had boot-stomped it to prevent it ever militarizing again-- So, we have #2 and #3 again. The populace of Germany felt threatened by the politics of other nations, and were at odds with their (outsiders') politics.  As the Nazi party rose to power, the topic of Libenstraum (however you spell that-- "living space", basically) came up, which then added #1 to the mix-- We also get the SS and the Semitic genocide on the table, which fits cleanly into #3. How much money was spent on that war? How many resources were consumed in it? How many lives lost? For what reason? Politics, and adamant refusals to budge on official positions, forcing hands-- or at least, galvanizing enough people to support forcing hands. Was "sticking to political lines" a good enough justification for what happened? (I don't think so.)

The people responsible for that kind of petulance are the political elites; the ones who make and enforce policy decisions. That's why I hold them accountable-- When they turn blind eyes to actual needs, concerns, and beliefs of others, simply to justify their own powerbase and political rhetoric, they inevitably cause wars. They are the ones which galvanize the public to commit these atrocities, they are the ones that produce the festering environment that spawns the conflict, and they are the ones that are willing to waste lives, infrastructure, capital, and resources on a fool's game.  Nearly all wars could be stopped before they even start just by seeking to understand the needs and beliefs of our fellow human neighbors.  Nationalism is a cancer upon the earth.

 
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SalmonGod

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1502 on: April 19, 2015, 11:45:18 am »

Blaming war on vague elites is like blaming it on thermodynamics. Equal parts true and meaningless.

Yeah, it's no profound statement, but it wasn't the point of my post, either.

It glosses over the fact that there is influence on the leaders and their priorities change. Today's political system is far less belligerant than past systems. The world is a safer place. If you rant against vague elites and make cynical noises about their motives then you are ignoring the important trend.

I believe this, but probably not to nearly the extent that you do.  I think this is a popular thing to say among moderates, because they're in a position where they don't have to worry so much about being subject to the brutality that's still in the world today.

There are still large swathes of less developed nations that are in absolutely shitty states, and a majority of them because of the meddling, past or present, of more developed nations.  The "war on terror" is still ongoing after nearly 15 years, has caused death and misery for millions of innocents, and was initiated in much the same way WW2 was.  By stirring up fear and hatred among a population that was emotionally vulnerable, and it's resulted in a long-lasting vicious racism among a large segment of the population.  Poverty is getting worse, and it's as deadly as ever.  We have the largest prison population in the history of civilization, and most of them are in for petty, often victimless crimes whose sentences are blown up by the political influence of a for-profit prison industry.  And we'll see how civilized things remain as environmental pressures increase.

The major difference is society (and that means everyone) has got a lot better at hiding, marginalizing, and ignoring the brutal aspects of our society. 

War is fought by smaller numbers of soldiers, who are less likely to engage in combat directly.  Which means that your average person in the U.S. can much more easily ignore the thousands of innocent people still being maimed and killed as collateral damage, unless they actually choose to care. 

Malnutrition and poverty are still huge and growing problems that are completely unjustifiable when you look at the material ability we actually have to improve that situation.  The difference today is we've become more efficient at shoving the homeless off to the fringes of society, where we don't have to notice them.  And people don't just starve to death in the streets anymore.  They eat cheap processed foods with little nutritional value, so that people who don't want to care can play down their misery by pointing out how poverty can't be so bad if they're still getting fat, even though they're still not only malnourished but developing conditions like diabetes and cancer at higher rates than ever before in history. 

I don't even need to explain how the prison population is a silent, hidden tragedy.  Although I will point out that we've returned to using solitary confinement as a standard practice (tens of thousands in the U.S. at any given time), which had fallen out of favor for nearly 100 years because it was deemed too cruel and damaging to the individual without any practical benefit, and is the backbone of every modern torture method.

And we're a fuck of a lot more distracted on a daily basis.  It's just a lot easier for anyone to semi-willfully ignore the world around them.

There is a trend towards being less openly belligerent.  And my historical perspective is this trend exists because a fuckton of noise was made about it throughout the 20th century.  Not because the motives of politicians changed.  Because our culture evolved to be less tolerant and enabling of it.  Why would we stop now just because there is a trend towards improvement, when we still have so far to go?  We need to keep the pressure on for our culture to be more and more actively opposed to the horrendous shit that our leaders still try to do.
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1503 on: April 19, 2015, 01:57:54 pm »

Hillary's campaign logo is out. I just...what?



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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

penguinofhonor

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1504 on: April 19, 2015, 02:00:32 pm »

.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 10:26:22 am by penguinofhonor »
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SalmonGod

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1505 on: April 19, 2015, 02:04:44 pm »

Hillary's campaign logo is out. I just...what?

This was the avatar up on your rotation when I viewed this post.  It was perfect.



So... a blue H... with a red arrow transposed on it... pointing to the right... I can't think of any good way to interpret this!  Arrow communicates movement.  Direction and color of arrow communicates the direction and nature of that movement.  Why?
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
We dance for the idiots
As the end will come so soon
In the land of twilight

Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1506 on: April 19, 2015, 02:05:49 pm »

I mean...it looks like something from a real estate agency. It's just boring. It's also a giant red arrow pointing rightward.

[EDIT: Ninja'd by Salmon God.]
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1507 on: April 19, 2015, 02:09:13 pm »

I told you she wasn't worthy. It might have helped had Obama not sued the guy who made the Hope & Change campaign.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1508 on: April 19, 2015, 02:13:11 pm »

Chafee's is OK, I suppose:



Both Paul and Cruz scream "bankrolled by oil and gas companies":





Rubio looks like a logo for designer underwear.

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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Arx

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1509 on: April 19, 2015, 02:19:24 pm »

Chafee's is OK, I suppose:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As a non-American: with that name and logo, he looks like he wants to start a bakery/cafe, not run for president. Except the Lincoln part.

Both Paul and Cruz scream "bankrolled by oil and gas companies":
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Rand natural gas, delivering since 19--!


Actually, these honestly all look to me like they somehow couldn't afford a decent graphic designer.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 02:28:50 pm by Arx »
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penguinofhonor

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1510 on: April 19, 2015, 02:57:21 pm »

.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2015, 10:26:27 am by penguinofhonor »
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1511 on: April 19, 2015, 02:59:39 pm »

I have seen multiple people on Facebook saying Hilary's logo looks like a plane hitting the twin towers. Some people are still shoehorning 9/11 into everything they can, it seems.

Hey, there's always this:



(This image appears to come from an odious little webpage called upyoursobama.com...)
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1512 on: April 19, 2015, 03:02:53 pm »

It's not a good sign that the best logo is Rubio's sexy, sexy underwear font.
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Quote from: Thomas Paine
To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, and whose philosophy consists in holding humanity in contempt, is like administering medicine to the dead, or endeavoring to convert an atheist by scripture.
Quote
No Gods, No Masters.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1513 on: April 19, 2015, 03:13:44 pm »

Rubio wants the states to decide same-sex marriage, not the courts.

I don't really get this line of thought...the whole point of judicial review is that it's not elected officials' business what the courts can and can't decide. The most troubling part about this actually has nothing to do with same-sex marriage...it's the poor legal reasoning.

(Of course, Rubio has a J.D., so I suspect he probably knows better but has to appear sufficiently pious about states' rights to primary voters.)

(This is, nota bene, why I'm not actually very concerned that the country might elect a Republican who was opposed to same-sex marriage...it's going to be the law of the land by the end of the decade through SCOTUS. It strikes me as silly to be worried about the positions of elected officials on an issue that's going to be legislatively untouchable within the next presidential term.)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 03:21:41 pm by FearfulJesuit »
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@Footjob, you can microwave most grains I've tried pretty easily through the microwave, even if they aren't packaged for it.

Dutchling

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Re: Bay12 2016 Election Megathread- It Was Inevitable
« Reply #1514 on: April 19, 2015, 04:35:17 pm »

Spoiler: could be worse (click to show/hide)
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