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[Dwarf4Explosives]

The necromancers get gifts from the gods to make them powerful. Meanwhile, HFS are just raised from the place where they trapped them occasionally. And anyway, it's kinda cool that someone who wants to become the most powerful creature alive can actually do that. Plus, a single fire imp can take down half a necromancers army permanently, and quite possibly kill the necromancer. Only dragons and similar can survive being flame-roasted.

[Borge]

Just had a miller and a farmer have their heads pulped by a horse foal skin directly after butchery, then lost the rest of the fortress to the two dwarf corpses, including my four hammer wielding recruits. So bringing this topic back since undead need a serious looking into for how powerful they are.

[draeath]

I'll agree. I think they should be dangerous, but getting pulped by skin? I'd call shenanigans like that bugs.

[Loud Whispers]

Getting pulped by reanimated skin sounds horrifyingly appropriate for DF. I wonder if DF takes into account that reanimated skin is missing the rest of the animal however? So a reanimated chicken skin is infinitely less harmful than the might of whale skin.

[i00n]

After embarking in terrifying region my last couple of games (in most of those I were just trying to dig instantly and move everything important underground then locking the door) and after succeeding to raise a fort and getting full steel squad with master skills I have noticed that that they weren't that much of a thread to those undeads. After seeing a caravan with guards getting decimated by a single dwarf corpse and a left hand I got worried. Well trying to deal with those undead ended my fort, one risen inside of my fort and I have failed to contain it even thoough I felt i was prepared.
The strength boost is somewhat okay (mabye just slightly too high), but the agility boost (resulting in constant dodging and very quick attacks) is too much. It feels more like fighting master warriors that can not be stunned than fighting a dead, dumb body. I could understand if they were like some damned, half dead half alive beigns with a working mind and just strenght boost from their curse but right now this does not seem to be the case. Even if it were then kinda... I don't like the fact that even someones arm poses a huge threat (untrained and unarmed civilans can't even dream about surviving such encounter from what I have seen).
I think they need a slight nerf or at least tweaking, right now I don't really see any point in embarking on an evil zone, in 0.34 things were fun (just slightly underpowered imo) but right now it's just plain silly.

[BoogieMan]

At the moment Undead are basically Bruce Lee if he became The Incredible Hulk. Avoid them no matter how well equipped and skilled you are because they are grossly overpowered.

I've cheated and made downright Godlike adventurers to fight them and have still gotten destroyed.


If you're in fortress mode, well, I hope you either have magma and/or a sea of weapon traps.

[k33n]

What reason "should" the omnipotent Toad vandalize his game's setting with a bunch of smelly fantasy tropes? Keep it unique and challenging, please. Undead can be fast and strong, its cooler and makes for better stories.

[WillowLuman]

Currently the only reason that necromancers don't take over the world whenever they appear is that offscreen battles are abstracted. Cool is a matter of opinion: in mine, its ridiculous.

[BoogieMan]

What reason "should" the omnipotent Toad vandalize his game's setting with a bunch of smelly fantasy tropes? Keep it unique and challenging, please. Undead can be fast and strong, its cooler and makes for better stories.

How it cool or a good story where no matter how good you are, no matter what armor you have, they can one-shot punch your head out of existence? How they can wreck squads of Steel-clad experienced warriors with ease?

Broken is broken. They are too strong and too fast, it's just a fact. Broken stats isn't a challenge, it's a bug.

[Loud Whispers]

How it cool or a good story where no matter how good you are, no matter what armor you have, they can one-shot punch your head out of existence?

DF: It doesn't matter who you are, if you bleed you can die.

How they can wreck squads of Steel-clad experienced warriors with ease?

Because they're made by unholy lands that hate all life or they're made by necromancers who have discovered the secrets of life and death after having made pacts with strange gods whose interactions seem limited to cursing the mortals beneath them. These aren't exactly your standard goblins. And for that matter, DF goblins are a hell of a lot tougher than your "standard" fantasy goblins who are just mook food. DF goblins will also fuck up your seasoned veterans, because they are themselves seasoned veterans.

Broken is broken. They are too strong and too fast, it's just a fact. Broken stats isn't a challenge, it's a bug.

Or perhaps this is a problem that cannot be solved by charging into it headlong. Not everything can be solved by an axedwarf.
You can:

• Use your Fortress and Marksdwarves
• Cave ins
• Bridges
• Quarantine/Lockdown systems
• Freeze traps
• Traps in general are godsends. Cage traps are still OP and fields of stone traps are cheap and plentiful.
• Train your military well and truly good before sending them into battle with the undead. If they're not highly-disciplined, legendary, super-dwarvenly mighty, tough and agile, equipped with the best bronze, iron, steel or candy you've got; consider picking another day to fight.
• Create a vampire squad that can walk right past a zombie horde and assassinate the necromancer, before getting to work on the horde itself.
• Create a were-creature squad that can be torn to pieces and not really be bothered by that at all, whilst marksdwarves pick off the necromancers from above.
• When in doubt, magma.
• When in doubt, release the inorganic megabeasts.

[WillowLuman]

Though raven corpses being able to solo the entire HFS is probably a bug. I don't think undead were intended to be the toughest things in the game, but they are.

[BoogieMan]

That doesn't apply to Adventure mode. And some of those for Fortress mode aren't always possible, but that hardly the point anyway.


 The thing is, getting better in the game (better stats, gear) doesn't make much difference against the undead, while it does against everything else. Individually undead can be extremely powerful, and they often come in bigger swarms that anything else.

You can cheat and make yourself a ridiculously powerful adventurer in masterwork steel or adamantine and still get one shotted by average undead. Or getting killed by hair or a flap of skin when you make Conan the Barbarian look like a little pixie.

OP, and obviously incomplete implementation. End of story.

[Loud Whispers]

Though raven corpses being able to solo the entire HFS is probably a bug. I don't think undead were intended to be the toughest things in the game, but they are.

Hahaha, true enough. Though to be fair, ravens are supernatural murder machines in life and death; several hundred of anything should be terrifying and this was in 34.11 where pulping didn't exist (so culmulative damage beyond fire couldn't eventually render a corpse incapable of being resurrected) and fire itself couldn't damage corpses.

I still think there could be much done to accommodate everyone's tastes with RNG corpses, so you have some that align more with quasi-intelligent undead retaining skills and are bog standard (by DF standards), some with skill rust and rotting, some that are weak like so many flaps of skin flailing in the wind and corpses which align more with husks and are bruce lees made out of iron.

[Witty]

DF goblins are a hell of a lot tougher than your "standard" fantasy goblins who are just mook food. DF goblins will also fuck up your seasoned veterans, because they are themselves seasoned veterans.

wat. That isn't true at all. Like even in the slightest. DF goblin invaders are absolutely pathetic in the face of trained, equipped soldiers. They don't even have proper armor coverage, let alone decent skills.

Anyway, I honestly can't see where the pro-OP undead people are coming from. It's clearly unintended for them to be so ridiculously overpowered. Wasn't the entire point of the pulping mechanic to nerf undead?

Looking at some arena test fights, every single kill an undead got versus a better skilled, armored troop came from a punch to the head. Every single time. That's silly, and broken. There's really nothing else that can be said about it.

I can't wait for the day that DF can finally have invaders that aren't either mincemeat-waiting-to-happen or hyper broken unstoppable death machines

[Calidovi]

DF goblins are a hell of a lot tougher than your "standard" fantasy goblins who are just mook food. DF goblins will also fuck up your seasoned veterans, because they are themselves seasoned veterans.

wat. That isn't true at all. Like even in the slightest. DF goblin invaders are absolutely pathetic in the face of trained, equipped soldiers. They don't even have proper armor coverage, let alone decent skills.

Anyway, I honestly can't see where the pro-OP undead people are coming from. It's clearly unintended for them to be so ridiculously overpowered. Wasn't the entire point of the pulping mechanic to nerf undead?

Looking at some arena test fights, every single kill an undead got versus a better skilled, armored troop came from a punch to the head. Every single time. That's silly, and broken. There's really nothing else that can be said about it.

I can't wait for the day that DF can finally have invaders that aren't either mincemeat-waiting-to-happen or hyper broken unstoppable death machines

Armies don't scale. When civilizations develop as your own does, then challenging enemies will be easier to come by.