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Author Topic: Undead should not be intelligent, they should be slow and unable to block/dodge.  (Read 26477 times)

Areyar

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Sapience a minor thing, really?

Object tracking and movement are lower-brain functions, much more ancient, basic, robust and automatic so requiring no or little sentience.
Object recognition and purposeful action do require processing though.

unless minds of reanimated corpses are guided by trapped ghosts, spirits or deamons they will need external guidance... I'm not entirely sure which Toady has chosen tbh. iirc the classic fantasy zombie usually retains some traits and insticts from when they were alive, but their 'souls' and most memories are already lost to whatever afterlife there may be in the respective settings.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2015, 06:05:22 pm by Areyar »
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Urist Tilaturist

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The original fantasy dwarves were in Norse myths and forged masterworks from metal, and the original fantasy zombies were from Haitian mythology and were undead slaves raised to work on sorcerers' farms and increase the spiritual wealth of the sorcerer. They possessed only half their souls and were condemned to be slaves if they had displeased Baron Samedi, who took the good dead Haitians to paradise. When considering depictions of a fantastic creature, it is best to go back to the original stories.
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

For old times' sake.

Putnam

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Is the undead curse hardcoded? If it isn't then you can change it to make them weaker (or even stronger if you're insane and/or a masochist :P) but yea, a difficulty setting for undead would be nice.

I think the code for those is in the raws under the file "interaction examples", I believe that the Necromancer one is "interaction_secret" with this being the zombie's code

They're called "interaction examples" explicitly because they are examples; modifying them will do nothing.

Gargomaxthalus

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Zombie's toughness and strength boosts should decay along with their flesh. I can buy that a fresh corpse would be stronger and tougher than a person due to no inhibitions, but walking skeletons and animated hair should be as useless as a golden axe.

Actually, magically animated skeletons tend to be able to move in ways that fleshy beings are incapable of. They are lighter, faster and more nimble. Their only weakness is blunt force trauma, with arrows and bolts often glancing off or harmlessly passing between the ribs and the huge void between them and the pelvis. Skeletons are bad news.
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Jakob

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In real life, plate armor is pretty much invincible, no way it should be punched through by a zombie.
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Build a replica of the Krusty Krab around the creature, then lock prisoners customers inside it so that the sponge can mutilate them take their order.

Urist Tilaturist

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A strong strike with a good steel sword can cut through bone (skeletons from Viking areas have been found with both thighs cut through in 1 strike), so it could be effective against skeletons if the severed parts do not just reanimate.

Plate armour is invincible to stabbing and cutting by a creature of human size. Blunt trauma can still penetrate plate armour, albeit less effectively. A zombie's fist should just shatter and pulp itself rather than piercing plate armour (when, o when will attackers be able to damage themselves by hitting something hard?), but the wearer could still be knocked over or winded by the blow, just not killed.
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Bloax

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Magically animated skeletons aren't bad news because any decent makeshift weapon will shatter their bones.
Any actual weapon will obliterate them, unless of course said weapon happens to be ammunition-based.
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oh_no

Verjigorm

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The original fantasy dwarves were in Norse myths and forged masterworks from metal, and the original fantasy zombies were from Haitian mythology and were undead slaves raised to work on sorcerers' farms and increase the spiritual wealth of the sorcerer. They possessed only half their souls and were condemned to be slaves if they had displeased Baron Samedi, who took the good dead Haitians to paradise. When considering depictions of a fantastic creature, it is best to go back to the original stories.
Eastern Germanic traditions in the iron age(so, BC, and predating Haitin zombies by about a millenia, atleast) held that the dead could and would rise from the grave, filled with a thirst for blood and a taste for human flesh.   This belief was widespread enough to influence both burial traditions, and the tactics of specific tribes.   Through-out the eastern stretches of Germania(into Pomerania, Prussia, Poland, Mazovia and Ukraine) there were pre-christial burial where the traditional gravegoods of warriors are ritually burned and broken.   Swowrds would be broken, their hilts burnt, shields would be burnt, helmets crushed and burnt, etc.   The belief was that whiel a warrior needed his goods in Valhalla, if you left them on earth, when the corpse rises, it would have weapons.   Corpses were also burnt and placed in urns, rather than buried.   

A specific tribe, probably in the Sil;esia region(so modern Czech Republic) known as the Harri took advantage of this belief by painting themselves black and cultivating a reputation that they devoured the corpses of their foes, and were the dead unleashed from Hel.  They ustilized this in ambushes and night attacks, which were traditional German tactics, but they were noted as being particularly fearsome on account of their reputation and apperance.

In the Old Norse traditions(which carry on from Germanic traditions, hence Wotan becomes Odin, Thunorozz becoms Thor, Tiawaz is Tyr, and much of the mythic structures are retained) have numerous forms of undead, with the Draugr and Haugbui.  The Draugr were described as blackish-blue(reference that black body paint of the Harri!), often of immense supernatural strength(and sometimes size!), sometimes immune to weapons, sometimes not.   Those slain by the Draugr would often return as Draugr themselves.   

I'll also note these Eastern Germanic beliefs are probably also a root origin for the Vampr:  proto-slavs and eastern germans interacted a great deal, to the extent that there's difficulty identifying different settlements remains, because of the very similar material culture.

So, yeah, There's older myths of walking dead who desire to kill all life, that are internal to the same mythic system that developed the concept of Dwarves.   Probvably good to go with that tradition, rather than something completely unconnected.
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Bloax

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Well all that is certainly much cooler than what DF has now - which is walking dead, rotting corpses that are actually untiring, mute bodybuilders perfectly capable of everything a living person is because reasons.
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oh_no

Urist Tilaturist

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Those Germanic legends sound like an excellent source of DF material, especially since DF dwarves are inspired by Norse myths.
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

For old times' sake.

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I like to think of the DF zombies as of something completly different from our "normal" zombies, far more paranormal. Like memory being something that can exist even outside of the brain, so they dodge because of basic reflexes they rember from when they were alive.

But that does not explain why they're better at it than my legendary demigod.
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Kamamura

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In real life, plate armor is pretty much invincible, no way it should be punched through by a zombie.

Nope, not quite. Longbow bodkin arrows go through when hitting directly, crossbow bolt from a heavy crossbow goes through the whole armored knight, including the shield. Direct thrust from a polearm can pierce it too.

Plate armor was not built to withstand blows like tank armor, it was made to made blows glance off the user.
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The entire content consists of senseless murder, a pile of faceless naked women and zero regard for human life in general, all in the service of the protagonist's base impulses. It is clearly a cry for help from a neglected, self absorbed and disempowered juvenile badly in need of affectionate guidance. What a sad, sad display.

utunnels

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Well not just undead. I had a spear master who was slaughtering the merchants and guards when suddenly a cow kicked his brain out as if the steel helm was not there.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Nope, not quite. Longbow bodkin arrows go through when hitting directly, crossbow bolt from a heavy crossbow goes through the whole armored knight, including the shield. Direct thrust from a polearm can pierce it too.

Plate armor was not built to withstand blows like tank armor, it was made to made blows glance off the user.

Longbow bodkin arrows could not usually pierce well made plate. Even if they somehow did, they would still be unlikely to pierce the padding and do organ damage. Arrows killed armoured knights by hitting them in the gaps in their armour, not by piercing the plate. Even mail could stop longbow arrows at medium range.

A crossbow bolt could pierce plate at short range, but punching through a man seems unlikely except in the case of very big and slow crossbows.

Stabbing with a polearm would not pierce plate. Smashing would send a crushing shock through the armour and damage the victim underneath.

Piercing plate was very hard to do (if you have ever thrust through plate, please tell me about it), and most attacks on plated opponents involved smashing with blunt weapons or attacking the gaps in the armour. See the historical treatises for proof of this, and also this video and others on the channel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1WZLVZYBwQ
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On the item is an image of a dwarf and an elephant. The elephant is striking down the dwarf.

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golemgunk

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It's probably something that's going to be handled procedurally, eventually. Deadly, supertough undead have their place in areas like evil wastelands or certain spells, but it's a little ridiculous for it to be the norm.
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