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Author Topic: Females in Games? Thread  (Read 163632 times)

Neonivek

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1800 on: January 05, 2015, 12:19:09 pm »

Here is the thing though.

If you honestly look for it, you can find a lot of variety in videogames.

It is like how someone said that "All romance novels are supernatural boyfriends". I bet a lot of people believe that right now. In truth? Not only has that tried actually stopped (movies are sort of... late to the party so to speak), but even during Twilight there were other type of books even within that novel.

You want to know what actually is killing variety in videogames though? It is just a shift in the gaming market from going after specific markets within the gaming culture (the idea of a "Cult Game" was alive and well), to a heavy focus on the general market. Mind you it was always the case, it just became more pronounced.

This is because games are becoming so obscenely expensive to make that they HAVE to go for a general audience... AND because videogames have finally pushed their way to the popular consciousness to the point where instead of being considered a niche interest it is something most people now have a lot of experience with.

And the bigger issue? Gaming Companies are... Right.

I hate this... I hate it a LOT!... But they are right. It does sell.

DLC usually sucks and is often a rip off with season passes now being made as a way to make people pay for a lot of expensive DLC they would now NEVER buy (Thanks Mordor...)... But they are right it does sell.

And when you want change... Money talks.

The Sims 4 is a boil down casualization of the series that BUTCHERS anything people ever loved about the series and replaces it with a blander reinterpretation but has a ok creation system... But it sold. Quite well in fact.

There is a LOT more variety in games then people give credit for...

They just always look at the worst games to see it or only concentrate on the extremely popular ones... It is like defining Young Adult books by the standards of Twilight because it sold the most.

Mind you all the games "I" personally love are dying off... but that is because they were always games with a strong dedicated small group of people interested... and in the past games could be made on that basis. But they had no mass market appeal.

Not that there aren't exceptions. All the JRPGs I love are dying because JRPGs can be made like Anime... and all the JRPGs I loved had their own style, even when they delved into anime territory. So any JRPG now, needs to be like an anime or else it doesn't sell.

But these are my preferences. If people didn't like these changes, they wouldn't sell. I just wish the "Casual Market" had more of a variety and more of an interest in quality when it came to taste... as well as the ability to discern when a game is giving a shallow feature and disguising it as a good one.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 12:30:24 pm by Neonivek »
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Helgoland

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1801 on: January 05, 2015, 12:48:14 pm »

bans are reprehensible in an age you can, legally, purchase Mein Kampf down your street.aa

No you can't - the copyright holder is the Bavarian state, and they refuse to print it. Any copy of Mein Kampf printed after 1945 is pirated.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1802 on: January 05, 2015, 12:58:49 pm »

Personally I prefer that armour be practical for the most part. It's just a matter of setting believability for me. Like I'll take Mount & Blade and Dark Souls over any medieval fantasy game where people wear "anime" armour.

Though I do find it a bit hypocritical how revealing male armour seems to be considered "power fantasy" while revealing female armour is considered "sexualized". I can tell you from experience that most gay men would find a big buff guy with skin showing pretty sexy.

There's nothing hypocritical about it. The difference lies in who is the creator, their reasons for making them look like that, and who the target audience is.

I never liked this Thought Crime approach to judgment.

Would Agatha Christie's novels suddenly be bad if we found out it was actually written as fetish fuel for some man by some guy and he just gave her all the credit?

I think it should stand on its own merits rather then what you can psychically determine from the creator.
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« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 01:03:25 pm by Bohandas »
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Bohandas

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1803 on: January 05, 2015, 01:21:06 pm »

Which is PRECISELY why the "Advantage" argument is bullshit. 

Women ARE seeking advantage, pay scales ARE normalizing.

The loudest proclaimers of "The patriarchy" are females, who for whatever reason, want to assert that this is untrue, and that they are delicate flowers being walked on. (Nevermind that even men get walked on, when they allow others to walk on them. The fight to not be walked on is continual, and not specific to women.)

Since you've brought up unequal pay scales, I have to say that I've always believed that that one must be at least partially illusory to begin with.

Unequal pay for women doesn't seem like a thing that could really happen; not because I believe women are treated fairly mind you, but because there's simply no way that a modern corporation would underpay only HALF of its workers if it were equally feasible to underpay ALL of its workers.
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Arx

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1804 on: January 05, 2015, 01:26:55 pm »

Actually, that's a thing that happens. My sister's boyfriend was recently pretty annoyed at his company on discovering during a meeting that women were paid 7% less than men for web design. He brought up that this was unfair and that something should be done, and the rest of the board apparently just ignored him.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1805 on: January 05, 2015, 01:30:22 pm »

Since you've brought up unequal pay scales, I have to say that I've always believed that that one must be at least partially illusory to begin with.

Unequal pay for women doesn't seem like a thing that could really happen; not because I believe women are treated fairly mind you, but because there's simply no way that a modern corporation would underpay only HALF of its workers if it were equally feasible to underpay ALL of its workers.

I don't think that this argument hold water : a well known trick to pay all your workers less is to pay one half even worst than the other.
That's why they hired women and children in the first place : they could be payed less (back then it was an evidence)  and then further reduce the pay of the mens.
Institutionalised racism work the same way : it doesn't help white as much as it penalize blacks, and if don't properly ensure that the poorest whites will do anything to keep black done, even if it hurt their own condition.
It's a very old trick, Rome used a variation of that.

The problem of the pay gap is that it is multifactorial : men being simply more assersive on average (which isn't far fetched) could explain it alone in some cases. The fact that more women tend to choose to be with their childdren is also definitely a factor.  But a bia is probably at play too, bosses tend to be pretty old.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1806 on: January 05, 2015, 02:22:12 pm »

The problem of the pay gap is that it is multifactorial : men being simply more assersive on average (which isn't far fetched) could explain it alone in some cases. The fact that more women tend to choose to be with their childdren is also definitely a factor.  But a bia is probably at play too, bosses tend to be pretty old.
An interesting idea that came up in my class on american multicultural stuff last semester was that we've had tons of reform in dealing with multicultural people in these last 10 years or so. The interesting thing was that when you looked at the numbers this was also the point where Congress had finally shifted to have more members born late enough that they wouldn't remember major events like the Little Rock Nine because they were too young with the older ones retiring or dying out.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if we had a similar "revolution" happen in the next 10 years or so with feminism stuff, to match the tipping point for the big 1960's second wave feminism equality movement, where the majority of our leaders will now have been born late enough that they don't remember a time before the crusade for equality.
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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1807 on: January 05, 2015, 02:44:25 pm »

bans are reprehensible in an age you can, legally, purchase Mein Kampf down your street.aa

No you can't - the copyright holder is the Bavarian state, and they refuse to print it. Any copy of Mein Kampf printed after 1945 is pirated.
"At the time of his suicide, Hitler's official place of residence was in Munich, which led to his entire estate, including all rights to Mein Kampf, changing to the ownership of the state of Bavaria. As per German copyright law, the entire text is scheduled to enter the public domain on 1 January 2016, 70 years after the author's death.[22] The government of Bavaria, in agreement with the federal government of Germany, refuses to allow any copying or printing of the book in Germany, and opposes it also in other countries but with less success. Owning and buying the book is legal."

It's kind of a grey legal area, but interestingly enough it officially becomes public domain next year.

...yay?
The problem of the pay gap is that it is multifactorial : men being simply more assersive on average (which isn't far fetched) could explain it alone in some cases. The fact that more women tend to choose to be with their childdren is also definitely a factor.  But a bia is probably at play too, bosses tend to be pretty old.
An interesting idea that came up in my class on american multicultural stuff last semester was that we've had tons of reform in dealing with multicultural people in these last 10 years or so. The interesting thing was that when you looked at the numbers this was also the point where Congress had finally shifted to have more members born late enough that they wouldn't remember major events like the Little Rock Nine because they were too young with the older ones retiring or dying out.

I personally wouldn't be surprised if we had a similar "revolution" happen in the next 10 years or so with feminism stuff, to match the tipping point for the big 1960's second wave feminism equality movement, where the majority of our leaders will now have been born late enough that they don't remember a time before the crusade for equality.
Interesting little factoid: A while back, despite how singular and simplemindedly the pay gap is considered, it was announced in the US that the pay gap had reversed - women were gaining more than men.

Unsurprisingly, most people didn't care, and the news was buried under constant feminist claims that the "pay gap" still existed.

But then again, as I said - the way we examine this "pay gap" is laughable. You also don't consider the fact that as said, bosses (old, powerful positions in business) gain way more and come from an older time where males dominated the market. All that could be happening is that some companies decided to put some women in those positions, thus tipping the scale.

As for biological restrictions such as some mothers choosing to raise children rather than work, I guess it is a personal choice, not a cultural one. Working moms are quite common these days.
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Urist Tilaturist

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1808 on: January 05, 2015, 02:46:45 pm »

I don't think that this argument hold water : a well known trick to pay all your workers less is to pay one half even worst than the other.
That's why they hired women and children in the first place : they could be payed less (back then it was an evidence)  and then further reduce the pay of the mens.
Institutionalised racism work the same way : it doesn't help white as much as it penalize blacks, and if don't properly ensure that the poorest whites will do anything to keep black done, even if it hurt their own condition.
It's a very old trick, Rome used a variation of that.

The problem of the pay gap is that it is multifactorial : men being simply more assersive on average (which isn't far fetched) could explain it alone in some cases. The fact that more women tend to choose to be with their childdren is also definitely a factor.  But a bia is probably at play too, bosses tend to be pretty old.

Using child labour is primarily because children can be paid less, and also that they can be controlled and intimidated easily, but that is not part of a conspiracy to cut men's wages. Those are already as low as they can be. Besides, if the whole population is enslaved, the slave driver might as well use them all.

Who were Rome discriminating against? Jews? Christians? They had a black emperor, Septimus Severus, so discrimination against blacks seems unlikely...

If women are being paid less than men for the same hours doing the same job, that has been illegal in the USA since 1963. It may be badly enforced, but it seems more likely that women may work in lower paid jobs, take time off to raise children and not be promoted by male bosses who promote people like them. If they lack confidence, that may also be a cause. It is a complex issue, and not one that can be solved easily by heavy handed laws.

If you are a US woman and are being paid less than a man for the same hours doing the same job, know your rights and press charges.
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palsch

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1809 on: January 05, 2015, 02:57:51 pm »

The problem of the pay gap is that it is multifactorial : men being simply more assersive on average (which isn't far fetched) could explain it alone in some cases. The fact that more women tend to choose to be with their childdren is also definitely a factor.  But a bia is probably at play too, bosses tend to be pretty old.

Bringing back some relevant studies I've posted before;

Women are socialised not to be assertive (especially with men, who are more likely to be in the positions they have to negotiate with), and when they are assertive they are penalised for it.
Sometimes it does hurt to ask.
Spoiler: Abstract (click to show/hide)

There have been clear measurements of measurable gender bias in hiring and treatment of women in various areas;
The Impact of Gender on the Review of the Curricula Vitae of Job Applicants and Tenure Candidates: A National Empirical Study
Spoiler: Abstract (click to show/hide)
Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students
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Orchestrating Impartiality: The Impact of "Blind" Auditions on Female Musicians
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Do Masculine Names Help Female Lawyers Become Judges? Evidence from South Carolina
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That one is interesting; by measuring portfolio performance by past performance the women were doing just as well as the men, but they were assigned lower performing and less valuable portfolios.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 03:13:02 pm by palsch »
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wierd

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1810 on: January 05, 2015, 03:10:03 pm »

Indeed.  I was already aware of this kind of thing, which is why I said that what is considered feminine, or at least what is considered appropriate behaviour by women, is a major factor in this problem, and that women allowing this trend to persist is very much at the heart of the problem.

Acquiescing to the problem rather than being obstinate about it and demanding fair and proper representation and treatment in the academic and vocational markets only serves to perpetuate this problem.

Women need to demand fair compensation and equal work opportunities, and need to no be penalized for demanding such. Women need to stop feeling like it is wrong of them to make those demands, and that what is really wrong is for them to be given short shrift based on their plumbing.

The reason why industries do this shit, is because they can and do get away with it.  No other reason.  If they could get away with having you work for them for free (Slavery, without having to pay for lodging) , they would jump at the opportunity.
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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1811 on: January 05, 2015, 03:13:01 pm »

I always get anxious coming back to this thread but it's wonderful seeing a post like Palsch's up there.

I don't know where Sheo and Urist get their facts, but they are not from this universe. There is the fact that the pay inequality (which yes is reversed if you are something like a nurse, flight attendant, or secretary, but I don't feel like being pigeon holed into a sparse few jobs counts as inequality being reversed) also involves women spending more time with children is because businesses and places of work refuse to provide daycare and other services to these women. Women are punished for being mothers, and end up having to take more time off work. However, the pay gap involves the exact same jobs and qualifications, to clarify.

It's kind of like insurance providers charging women more because they feel like gynecological exams and pregnancy are not normal, seeing as the male body is normal, and therefore should cost more. Though I don't think that is legal anymore.

It's interesting that you say that unequal pay has been illegal for so long, because meth is also illegal. talking shit about your former employees when you are contacted by their future potential employer is also illegal. Firing people because they are pregnant is going up to the Supreme Court at this very moment and is not yet illegal. (That happens a lot, btw.) You have to enforce it and have consequences, otherwise it will be done anyway. Employers can find plenty of excuses to do whatever it is they want to do. Please, let's not be naive.

If everyone faithfully followed the rules in the first place, none of this would even be a problem. It's ridiculous to pretend like something not being approved of means it doesn't happen. It's insulting, frankly.

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smeeprocket

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1812 on: January 05, 2015, 03:16:30 pm »

Indeed.  I was already aware of this kind of thing, which is why I said that what is considered feminine, or at least what is considered appropriate behaviour by women, is a major factor in this problem, and that women allowing this trend to persist is very much at the heart of the problem.

Acquiescing to the problem rather than being obstinate about it and demanding fair and proper representation and treatment in the academic and vocational markets only serves to perpetuate this problem.

Women need to demand fair compensation and equal work opportunities, and need to no be penalized for demanding such. Women need to stop feeling like it is wrong of them to make those demands, and that what is really wrong is for them to be given short shrift based on their plumbing.

The reason why industries do this shit, is because they can and do get away with it.  No other reason.  If they could get away with having you work for them for free (Slavery, without having to pay for lodging) , they would jump at the opportunity.

"allow" as if we have control over the issue.

If we push things, we lose. If we do as we're told, we lose. What kind of control do you think we have?

It's like telling black men to be more assertive about getting jobs. It's not their problem that they are not getting them, the ball is not in their court.

Throwing the blame back on the oppressed, and expecting them to somehow claw their way up against all odds is ridiculous. It has also yet to work.

We have to do everything men do backwards and in high heels to get even close to the recognition they do and even then we should consider ourselves lucky, but -clearly- we are not doing enough.

Please, explain to women everywhere how to succeed.
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Gentlefish

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1813 on: January 05, 2015, 03:16:41 pm »

Indeed.  I was already aware of this kind of thing, which is why I said that what is considered feminine, or at least what is considered appropriate behaviour by women, is a major factor in this problem, and that women allowing this trend to persist is very much at the heart of the problem.

Acquiescing to the problem rather than being obstinate about it and demanding fair and proper representation and treatment in the academic and vocational markets only serves to perpetuate this problem.

Women need to demand fair compensation and equal work opportunities, and need to no be penalized for demanding such. Women need to stop feeling like it is wrong of them to make those demands, and that what is really wrong is for them to be given short shrift based on their plumbing.

The reason why industries do this shit, is because they can and do get away with it.  No other reason.  If they could get away with having you work for them for free (Slavery, without having to pay for lodging) , they would jump at the opportunity.

Because this is so easy to do when society is grooming you to be exactly as feminine as it tells them to?

It's been engraved into their minds so much that women have anxiety issues and nervous breakdowns when they try to force themselves into being more "masculine" after the literal decades of grooming they've experienced to be quiet and out of the way.

Men, too, have been groomed to think that they dominate a conversation. I'll find the study when I get home, but it's been empirically noted that when women share 50% of the conversation that the men in the group think they are talking too much, and when 50% of a group is women, most people think there are more women than men. What's interesting is that's because in most media, most crowd of people consist of 30-40% of women. That is considered an even spread by most people, without numbers to back it up.

And the wage gap, while usually talked about as a global issue, is not a thing you can deride by saying "oh, women just work less than men and they skew the results" because, funnily enough, those women aren't taken into consideration. The wage gap is job-by-job and based on annual salaries of women in equivalent positions as other men.

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Re: Females in Games? Thread
« Reply #1814 on: January 05, 2015, 03:21:38 pm »

I would be interested in seeing a nation by nation breakdown of the pay gap, as my anecdotal experience based on my workplace has more women employed in general, and in more powerful positions. It would be nice to know how out of the ordinary my experiences are. I suspect that they are, but also any data may be skewed by the USA and weight of numbers, as EU nations seem to be far more successful (note, "more", not totally) in terms of social equality.
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