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[Phmcw]

The "power fantasy" for videogame is either a myth or an evidence.

Videogames tend to despict you as all powerfull and flatter your ego, but that's not why they strip male character.


The idea of male nudity being different from female nudity come from "privilege" as seen by the Americans : instead of being a set of tangible advantage deliberately set in place to profit to the elite, it became an intengible notion supposedly helping certain part of the population (which is very convenient for said elite, suddently barely more privilieged than an able bodied rednek).
Male nudity therefore has to be different from female nudity and it resulted in the rise of that concept : males weren't sexualised, they were the realisation of the "power fantasy" of the player.

It seems pretty obvious to me that men on the cover of romance novel are really, really buff, or that the American-style ultra muscled nearly nacked hero come from a fetish author, or that the physique of Twilight's cast require hours in the gym and a special diet, and therefore that muscle are sexual attribute too.

Another argument is that it's not designed for women, but I don't think that it have to be. Women don't need videogame tailored for them, and those I know either play them sometime or have a passive interest for them. Simply put, they are expected to have other hobbies, and simply do that : series have a pretty mixed audience, and I'd be really interested to know the difference between the two.

[Neonivek]

The thing is... I think most videogames are not engendered anyhow.

What makes a videogame "For men" anyhow? what are the specific qualifications in needs to possess to be for men and not for women?

I really should stop referring to arguments made by Smeeprocket though...

[Sheo]

Personally I prefer that armour be practical for the most part. It's just a matter of setting believability for me. Like I'll take Mount & Blade and Dark Souls over any medieval fantasy game where people wear "anime" armour.

Though I do find it a bit hypocritical how revealing male armour seems to be considered "power fantasy" while revealing female armour is considered "sexualized". I can tell you from experience that most gay men would find a big buff guy with skin showing pretty sexy.

There's nothing hypocritical about it. The difference lies in who is the creator, their reasons for making them look like that, and who the target audience is.

So if a gay man or a hetero woman makes a game where women wear heavily revealing clothing, it's no longer sexualized?

No, not necessarily. "The difference lies in who is the creator, their reasons for making them look like that, and who the target audience is".

edit: And yes, a depiction can still be sexist despite of an author's intentions because of how it plays into the general culture of the society it is made it.

Ah, here is why I completely disagree with the whole argument.

The fact you're willing to tell me a female designed armor for a female is sexualization baffles me.

If we defend women can wear whatever they want, why not just accept the fact sex is not an evil thing? Why can't sexually positive icons exist in games, independent of whether it arouses some people or not?

Plus this pretension that male sexualization doesn't exist just shows the double standard.

[Neonivek]

Well Sheo, the usual explanation is as such:

Women are disadvantaged, thus anything that makes them disadvantaged is bad.

Men are advantaged, thus you cannot make them disadvantaged.

Thus Male Sexualization is good and only serves to make men more powerful. While Female Sexualization is bad because it only makes women weaker.

[Phmcw]

Well Sheo, the usual explanation is as such:

Women are disadvantaged, thus anything that makes them disadvantaged is bad.

Men are advantaged, thus you cannot make them disadvantaged.

Thus Male Sexualization is good and only serves to make men more powerful. While Female Sexualization is bad because it only makes women weaker.

This is a circular argument based on the conviction that men are always advantaged, A.K.A. superiors.

[scriver]

What makes a videogame "For men" anyhow?

Because that is what the executives who decide over game production thinks. Nobody here is saying that games are inherently for men in any way.

No, not necessarily. "The difference lies in who is the creator, their reasons for making them look like that, and who the target audience is".

edit: And yes, a depiction can still be sexist despite of an author's intentions because of how it plays into the general culture of the society it is made it.

Ah, here is why I completely disagree with the whole argument.

The fact you're willing to tell me a female designed armor for a female is sexualization baffles me.

If we defend women can wear whatever they want, why not just accept the fact sex is not an evil thing? Why can't sexually positive icons exist in games, independent of whether it arouses some people or not?

Plus this pretension that male sexualization doesn't exist just shows the double standard.

1. Don't try to make this into something about "sex being evil". That's not what I am is saying, and if that's what you're taking away from this discussion then you're not paying attention.

2. I'm is saying male sexualisation doesn't exist. What you quoted was explicitly about "how revealing male armour seems to be considered 'power fantasy' while revealing female armour is considered 'sexualized'" in fiction.

[Neonivek]

It isn't circular.

Male sexualization is only "Making men more powerful" so long as men are advantaged.

If society were to magically shift into a matriarchal society then it would be bad.

Because male sexualization lacks the infrastructure to harm men, except when it does but we ignore that because that is male on male and thus is just "bad" because it has no appreciable effect on all men except when it does.

At least within the typical argument.

Because that is what the executives who decide over game production thinks. Nobody here is saying that games are inherently for men in any way

Who cares what they think?

They can think that their videogames are being made for honey badgers... but is the context of the game a "male game"?

So once again, what makes an individual videogame "For men"? what is the quality it needs to pass to be a male game?

[Phmcw]

It isn't circular.

Male sexualization is only "Making men more powerful" so long as men are advantaged.

If society were to magically shift into a matriarchal society then it would be bad.

Because male sexualization lacks the infrastructure to harm men, except when it does but we ignore that because that is male on male.

At least within the typical argument.

That argument seems msotly popular in America, the country that use that very fetishisation of male strenght to lure young men into the last non-professional army of the western world. Army that non only suffer unusually high losses, but lose a lot of its soldiers to suicide and whose verteran perspective of resinsertion are extremely low.

I don't see how that is "lacking the infrastructure to harm men", especially since both in privilege theory and in conservative mentality, men's problem are overlooked. I honestly couldn't say who are worst off in your society.

[Rolan7]

Mass Effect

None of those pictures are from ME3, which kinda renders your argument invalid- because they've already taken some of those design changes on board.
You're preaching to the past.

This being said, the newer armor still features 'cuppable breasts'.
But I personally don't see an issue with it. If it's not intended to be noticeably useful, then what's the harm in asserting your femininity?
Which do you think would bring down more fire, if Femshep had boobplate, or that she 'looked like a man'.

I can't find evidence of those design changes in ME3, maybe you can share what you mean?  Shephard seems just as sexualized, maybe more, and I don't even mean those ridiculous promo pictures.

And I explained that the armor *is* intended to physically block weapons fire.  Even once the shields are down.
Even if it was purely aesthetic...  The female crew shouldn't have to "assert their femininity".  In Mass Effect 1, what does the career soldier (Ashley) have in common with the cloistered archaeologist and techno-gypsy to shy to show her face?  They're all women so they show off their curves, even in the heaviest armor available.  It's immersion-breaking.

[Neonivek]

I am going to stop doing what I am currently doing with basically giving you other people's arguments.

Because while I know the arguments to keep this going on and on and on... I know all about the many ways people try to minimize or dismiss the pain and anguish of others they feel are undeserving of sympathy because of a perceived blanketed advantage that magically applies to everyone and in every instance and justifies, usually indirectly, the abuse of others.

It kind of hurts me deep down to even mutter them, because... I know people who have been hurt and I don't want to legitimize the claims I am talking about, nor do I really want to mock the people who say them. These beliefs just don't deserve acknowledgement in the year 2000.

---

Male and Female Sexualization in videogames is an issue.

As is the fact that not all sexualization is bad.

"Power Fantasy" to me isn't a myth, but we need to understand that
A) Power fantasy isn't something that should be described as tawdry or bad. The "Power Fantasy" is one of the corner stones of fiction.
and
B) A Power Fantasy is simply any character who you feel empowered through or are expected to. It can be very diverse and can be subtle or profane. Conan is as much a power fantasy as Ash from Pokémon is.
and
C) It isn't exclusive to Men. There is no aspect of Power Fantasy that seems exclusive to me.

Those are my proposed 3 things people should accept when referring to Power Fantasies.

Power Fantasy cannot be used to deflect, defend, or bash anything. Being a "Male Power Fantasy" should never EVER be used as a way to put something down.

A Hero who sleeps around with a lot of women who are incredibly loose or whatever... isn't bad because it is a "Male Power Fantasy". The women are not being sexualized because it is a "Male Power Fantasy"... It is bad because it is a bad scene (Just imagine it is worse then I am saying it is.) with horrible implications. Heck even say it is a "Bad Male Power Fantasy".

---

As with women being sexy in videogames (Honestly I prefer "sexualized" as a neutral word because it describes so easily intentionally designing a female character to be sexy).

On of the ways you should always look before you dismiss it as a good or bad use is the Framing and how the games handle it.

So with the odd boob armor in Mass Effect. How many times does that game focus on women's breasts, angle to their boobs, give close ups of their breasts?

It may surprise you to hear this... I actually never noticed the female armor being "Bad" because the game never actually game me an excuse to really look that closely. It may have honestly just been designed that way because it looked good (Though in all honestly, I always though the armor was supposed to look 'bad' so to speak.. Like if Apple made space suits)

[smjjames]

It isn't circular.

Male sexualization is only "Making men more powerful" so long as men are advantaged.

If society were to magically shift into a matriarchal society then it would be bad.

Because male sexualization lacks the infrastructure to harm men, except when it does but we ignore that because that is male on male.

At least within the typical argument.

That argument seems msotly popular in America, the country that use that very fetishisation of male strenght to lure young men into the last non-professional army of the western world. Army that non only suffer unusually high losses, but lose a lot of its soldiers to suicide and whose verteran perspective of resinsertion are extremely low.

I don't see how that is "lacking the infrastructure to harm men", especially since both in privilege theory and in conservative mentality, men's problem are overlooked. I honestly couldn't say who are worst off in your society.

How the hell is the US army non-professional? That's like calling the British army or the Polish army or <insert your home country>s army non-professional.

[Sheb]

Yeah, it's also not based on conscription, so it totally makes it a professional army in my book.

[Rolan7]

On of the ways you should always look before you dismiss it as a good or bad use is the Framing and how the games handle it.

So with the odd boob armor in Mass Effect. How many times does that game focus on women's breasts, angle to their boobs, give close ups of their breasts?

It may surprise you to hear this... I actually never noticed the female armor being "Bad" because the game never actually game me an excuse to really look that closely. It may have honestly just been designed that way because it looked good (Though in all honestly, I always though the armor was supposed to look 'bad' so to speak.. Like if Apple made space suits)

Yeah definitely, Mass Effect doesn't actually sexualize women in-game much at all.  The armor design stuff is pretty minor, considering the market.  It's sexualization to gain sales but... I'd still recommend the series because Femshep is an empowered character with great voice acting.

The Asari race concept is a bit pandering.  But that's offset by the interesting individual Asari characters.  I'd definitely call it a net win.  It's science fantasy after all, not (hard) science fiction.

[Urist Tilaturist]

The US army is professional, but it maintains a selective service register of those who may be conscripted in the event of the draft being reintroduced for a potential future Viet Nam style war. That is presumably what he meant.

Boob armour should not exist anyway, regardless of sexualisation, power fantasy or whatever, because it looks stupid and is stupid; boob shaped lumps reduce the ability of the armour to deflect blows by possibly catching them in the cleavage. If you want a female warrior armour, just make it the same as the male; boobs can squash a bit to fit under a normal chest plate, with some bands to help if necessary, and it stops any discussions about sexism either.

[Sheb]

Which bring a question. Why do every http://stormtrooper in star wars got boobs armor?