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[Neonivek]

Enough of this assuming that white people are intrinsically more privileged than everybody else

I don't actually think this at all... But I have to go by the general consensus logic or else I am fighting up a waterfall. After all being "white" doesn't mean you are intrinsically privileged even in a white society. But for the sake of this thread we have to ASSUME that being a White Male means you are equally privileged across the board. While being female means you are intrinsically disadvantaged no matter your situation.

That is the general line of thought in the thread... and no I am not actually making that up or misrepresenting.

As well remember that one of the major point is that it doesn't matter WHO is making a game so much as who is buying the game.

So you have to think on those levels.

---

But in the end this discussion will pretty much only lead to one type of character coming to prominence and lets actually deal with that. Not race in general.

We have 20 year old or younger White Women with 30 being the upper limit (and they better be on the lower end of 30!) with any woman older then that either being the "Wisened old woman" or a villain.

So, let us talk about female representation when it comes to age and race.

[Sheb]

Well, it's more of a "generally advantaged/disadvantaged in the US/the West". I don't think anyone is trying to pretend anything else.

[alexandertnt]

Why are RPGs not role playing games? What are they? Ruchnoy protivotankovy granatomyot? (Handheld anti-tank grenade launcher)? That is not a safe thing for people to play with...

An RPG is a "Role Playing Game" (as a title), but not necessarily a "role playing game" (as a description). Many RPG's just focus on gaining levels and gaining skills from skill trees etc, to the point where "RPG elements" often means "A leveling up mechanic". You can say that in those cames you play a character, ergo you are playing a role, but then almost every game turns into an RPG (for example, you play a role in the Mario games).

[Neonivek]

If the RPG is set in a past Europe or Japan, or a similar civilisation, blacks will be rare (absent in the case of Japan). Those who exist are likely to be slaves sold by their kings to Arabs, or their analogue. A few free black people were present in Europe, as shown in paintings from the period, so a free black protagonist is possible, but seeing black people everywhere would be unlikely outside a slave market! The game could be a "Django Unchained" situation of freeing slaves (black and white) from the Arabs, since the Arabs also enslaved white people captured by corsairs or in battle.

Well that is arguable.

Afterall one of the lines of discussions in here is... Is it right to chose eras were women can't get proper representation? and! Even for historical accuracy is it right not to include combatant women in these games?

Should we hold WW2 games at fault for not having female soldiers? Should we hold game companies at fault for liking WW2 games so much? Are they at fault for even chosing WW2?

Which is: Can we thrust out current political needs onto videogames and is it just to do so? A sort of revisionist history in fictional form so to speak.

Why are RPGs not role playing games? What are they? Ruchnoy protivotankovy granatomyot? (Handheld anti-tank grenade launcher)? That is not a safe thing for people to play with...

An RPG is a "Role Playing Game" (as a title), but not necessarily a "role playing game" (as a description). Many RPG's just focus on gaining levels and gaining skills from skill trees etc, to the point where "RPG elements" often means "A leveling up mechanic". You can say that in those cames you play a character, ergo you are playing a role, but then almost every game turns into an RPG (for example, you play a role in the Mario games).

Indeed Roleplaying games were created when videogames had elements similar to Dungeons and Dragons which was called a "Roleplaying game".

Prior to it a game like Final Fantasy would be a member of the Adventure Genre.

RPGs and Adventure Games are for the most part... mutually exclusive (they cannot be a hybrid), because RPGs are a KIND OF offshoot of Adventure games (though story elements are not a requirement of RPG.

[Phmcw]

This thread is about female representation in games, and Smeep has already stated that races should be more varied.

But this is a thread about females in games. Not race in games.

Yes, but the thread is clearly highly "white" in any case because we are only referring to White Female protagonists aren't we?

What was the last Black Female main character? To my knowledge we don't have any.

As well, the talk about the effect of not having total female character saturation (as if 51% was somehow incredibly insufficient) I wanted to give this thread a bit of perspective.

Since right now we are talking about White Women, the second most privileged group in the world who are highly represented in all media.

Depends on your definition of RPG, I guess. How would you define it, Neonivek?

The RPG genre, and in this case not a "chose your own protagonist" and I am also saying it needs to have been sold in a store.

Just to eliminate obscure indie games.

Shantae, half genie hero is (obviously) middle eastern. Asian women are rather common (mirror edge for insance), Aveline in assassin's creed is a relevant black main character.

Most rpg allow you to choose your skin color.

The problem is to make a good relevantly black character. A lot of videogames don't have a good main character, so I don't think they'd be able to write a good character of a different race and sex.

ANd I'm not interested by playing a charicature of black woman, thank you. GTA3 was funny once, not twice.

BTW JRPG tend to be more diverse and to give eyecandy to both sex, not less.

[alexandertnt]

I think many people who have a problem with the way women are represented have more of a problem with the frequency and quality of these representations.

If every single game was based in feudal europe in a millitary setting, then you wouldn't expect many women at all in video games, but understandably people would still take issue with this, and would want to see more women in video games. Each game would be realistic, but the representation of women would be nearly non-existant, and could make it difficult for some women to get into gaming.

There are also other relevant points here too. I would bet it would not be uncommon for any women characters in these hypothetical games to embody certain typical characteristics of women and/or in general be boring, flat and uninteresting characters, despite the fact that they are unique individuas with unique personalities, tasts etc regardless of the time period.

In other words, those games with women in it don't have to be based in feudal europe (in the year 3000, why can't we have women going around in space-armor kicking ass?), and even then they can still have interesting and deep characters.

[Phmcw]

I think many people who have a problem with the way women are represented have more of a problem with the frequency and quality of these representations.

I cannot help but think that they have very few idea of what they are speacking about though. Women kicking ass in a futiristing setting are a fair share of widely sucessful videogames. The public is asking for more, not less. Transistor to name a recent one.

[Neonivek]

I think many people who have a problem with the way women are represented have more of a problem with the frequency and quality of these representations.

I have a larger problem with the representation personally. But I stick to genres that have better representation rates.

So I do not frequent the genres where you would go "Whoa a female protagonist? How did that happen?"

So I am in the happy bubble of "women frequent in videogames" where I do not have to care about them being in videogames.

But yeah how they are represented is what REALLY bugs me... Not how many shooters they are in.

[alexandertnt]

I cannot help but think that they have very few idea of what they are speacking about though. Women kicking ass in a futiristing setting are a fair share of widely sucessful videogames. The public is asking for more, not less. Transistor to name a recent one.

There have been improvements, yeah.

What I meant is that improving the representation of women in video games as a medium does not have to lead to unrealistic scenarios.

[Phmcw]

I cannot help but think that they have very few idea of what they are speacking about though. Women kicking ass in a futiristing setting are a fair share of widely sucessful videogames. The public is asking for more, not less. Transistor to name a recent one.

There have been improvements, yeah.

What I meant is that improving the representation of women in video games as a medium does not have to lead to unrealistic scenarios.

But how are they represented in videogames? In my experience, mostly badass machines of destructions, very helpfull friends that you get to rescue (like everyone else because you're the local rescue force of awesome. Did the game tell you you're awesome? If you buy the DLC it will tell you again how you're awesomer!), adored rulers, or cunning ennemies (that end up falling in loves with you because the game's job is to suck up to you most of the time).

So yeah, most games flatter you in every possible way and that include getting every single characters possible in mad love with you and dependant to you. But appart from that the representation is unrealistically positive.

[alexandertnt]

But how are they represented in videogames?

That's unrelated to my point, which is that video games can do virtually whatever they want without being unrealistic.

[Phmcw]

But how are they represented in videogames?

That's unrelated to my point, which is that video games can do virtually whatever they want without being unrealistic.

I think that's false. The reality is that there should be two different words : one for what can look like reality, is immersive and believable, and one for what fit reality closely. Videogames don't have to be the later to feel the former, but they cannot do whatever they want. 


Edit : the two words are belivable and realistic I guess, but there is the "reality is unrealistic trope" so realistic can be used as "belivable". Anyway, you'll have to be carefull to make your women belivable. Not that it's hard or it haven't been done.

 

[Urist Tilaturist]

I think many people who have a problem with the way women are represented have more of a problem with the frequency and quality of these representations.

If every single game was based in feudal europe in a millitary setting, then you wouldn't expect many women at all in video games, but understandably people would still take issue with this, and would want to see more women in video games. Each game would be realistic, but the representation of women would be nearly non-existant, and could make it difficult for some women to get into gaming.

There are also other relevant points here too. I would bet it would not be uncommon for any women characters in these hypothetical games to embody certain typical characteristics of women and/or in general be boring, flat and uninteresting characters, despite the fact that they are unique individuas with unique personalities, tasts etc regardless of the time period.

In other words, those games with women in it don't have to be based in feudal europe (in the year 3000, why can't we have women going around in space-armor kicking ass?), and even then they can still have interesting and deep characters.

In the year 3000, a woman and a man would be indistinguishable wearing "space armour" - think Samus in the old Metroid. It is hard enough to tell female and male soldiers apart now from a distance, never mind when experimental exoskeletons come into service later this century. If exoskeletons and space armour make physical strength and fitness less important in combat, there may be more female soldiers, but I still think that infantry forces at least will be majority male (since men are usually fitter than women, more men can pass the fitness requirements, creating a force of maybe 3:1 men to women in infantry roles). For roles like pilots and drivers where fitness is less important, women could be common.

Women are represented in past settings, and their characters should be as developed as those of the men. They just did not usually go around fighting in the way many game protagonists do, and in an age where physical strength mattered more in combat it usually made more sense for them to stay out of battle unless everyone was needed to fight (when a castle came under siege, the defending women joined in the fight). If they had young children, as many of them did, they could not just abandon them to go off and fight either.

Realism means being like reality actually is/was. "Reality is unrealistic" just sounds like the forlorn cry of somebody who injured himself badly by copying something from a TV show. Things can be somewhat believable but not realistic, but that is only possible in fantasy settings (where there is magic or technology that fulfils Clarke's law by seeming like magic).

[Neonivek]

That and the world is made of contradictions and exceptions.

There was a woman in World War 1 who fought with a sabre while 9 months pregnant (well probably not THAT pregnant, but everyone knew she was pregnant)... MIND you that was because the war was so desperate that basically everyone joined in and they couldn't afford to be chosey and I believe she likely died.

We often play games not just for the unrealism but for these exceptions.

We sometimes, yes, want to play the woman who is just some amazing soldier and no one cares and why should they?

But we also want to play the woman who has to fight her way into a sexist society and lacks many of the fundamental skills normally only taught to men... Or the only progeny of a noble who taught her in the ways of male nobility because otherwise he just has someone whose job it is, is to look pretty. OR maybe she is just so good that no one cares, but it isn't a transformed society.

Though frankly "I" usually prefer the female characters just be awesome and for it not to be questioned unless it is for non-gendered reasons.

[UXLZ]

I also tend to as a female character, though I'll admit that's because I'd prefer to look at a female than a male for 10 hours. >_>
The other main reason is, as a lover of manga, I've grown to dislike the big bulky space marine look and prefer a more lithe frame. Since guys tend to have really bulky builds in video games *cough* Divinity *cough* I usually decide on playing as a female for that reason as well.

Actually, thinking about it... In a 2D game I'll prefer to be male, in a 3D one I'll prefer to be female.