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[Arx]

I think Mass Effect supposedly did providing two character options really well, but I also feel that women being represented more all together would not drive away male gamers.

More women of color, and... I know this is a long shot, but trans men and women shown in a positive light, if not protagonists.

More women is pretty much a given, but yes. Women (and people in general) of colour sounds good. Regarding trans*¹ people, wouldn't they just be people? If I was trans*, and certainly post-op, I wouldn't tell anyone except very, very close friends that I was trans*. How does that work out in a game that doesn't revolve around close relationships? I don't see that kind of thing happening in, say, Call of Duty. Would it be reasonable to only include them in more character-oriented games?

LGBT men and women in general. I don't just want more representation for women, but for everyone. I think it would be great to be able to pick from a variety of games and know the protagonist isn't almost always going to be a straight white male. I admit I still game despite this being common, but seeing a strong female protagonist really draws me in.

Also sounds good. What's your opinion on the whole issue of shoehorning LGBT people into games as a token minority? It seems like a trap that's easy to fall into. Also, how would you work it statistically? In a game with five named characters, it seems statistically unlikely that more than one would be homosexual, which would leave any homosexual person romantically uninvolved.

I think we, as gamers, can provide the pressure to encourage this. And why should all our protagonists be of one body type, while we are at it. I want a playable Ellie from Borderlands 2. She rocked.

How specifically should we provide pressure? I'm asking this as a very casual kind of gamer. Not in the mobile apps sense, but the sense that I've spent less than $10 on games in the last ten years, preferring free games and only playing a couple of hours a day normally.

I'm looking for your opinions here, not trying to be hostile. I apologise if it comes off as hostile.

¹ If this is not the right term I apologise. I'm not trying to offend anyone.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Also sounds good. What's your opinion on the whole issue of shoehorning LGBT people into games as a token minority? It seems like a trap that's easy to fall into.

*cough*Bioware*cough*
*cough*Gay Planet Romance DLC*cough*

[Gentlefish]

When it comes to LGBT, it's really as simple as not showing a character's preference of gender. That covers all bases.

However, with the protag in an ME/DA-style game, just allow all the options to be possible, and don't get pissy on those who don't pick one.

[smeeprocket]

I think Mass Effect supposedly did providing two character options really well, but I also feel that women being represented more all together would not drive away male gamers.

More women of color, and... I know this is a long shot, but trans men and women shown in a positive light, if not protagonists.

More women is pretty much a given, but yes. Women (and people in general) of colour sounds good. Regarding trans*¹ people, wouldn't they just be people? If I was trans*, and certainly post-op, I wouldn't tell anyone except very, very close friends that I was trans*. How does that work out in a game that doesn't revolve around close relationships? I don't see that kind of thing happening in, say, Call of Duty. Would it be reasonable to only include them in more character-oriented games?

LGBT men and women in general. I don't just want more representation for women, but for everyone. I think it would be great to be able to pick from a variety of games and know the protagonist isn't almost always going to be a straight white male. I admit I still game despite this being common, but seeing a strong female protagonist really draws me in.

Also sounds good. What's your opinion on the whole issue of shoehorning LGBT people into games as a token minority? It seems like a trap that's easy to fall into. Also, how would you work it statistically? In a game with five named characters, it seems statistically unlikely that more than one would be homosexual, which would leave any homosexual person romantically uninvolved.

I think we, as gamers, can provide the pressure to encourage this. And why should all our protagonists be of one body type, while we are at it. I want a playable Ellie from Borderlands 2. She rocked.

How specifically should we provide pressure? I'm asking this as a very casual kind of gamer. Not in the mobile apps sense, but the sense that I've spent less than $10 on games in the last ten years, preferring free games and only playing a couple of hours a day normally.

I'm looking for your opinions here, not trying to be hostile. I apologise if it comes off as hostile.

¹ If this is not the right term I apologise. I'm not trying to offend anyone.

these are good questions, and not something I entirely have the answers to. Trans women and men generally identify as trans even if they choose to go through surgery (though some may hide it, especially since there is a law in most states where you can kill someone who is trans and say it drove you insane temporarily to find out, and it has worked as a defense in the past.) If there's a short bio on the character, it could be included.

Token minorities is a problem that I think stems, to some degree, from having say, a white male game dev group, try to appeal to an audience they don't understand. Bringing in outside help (if they simply can't hire devs that understand these things better) would be an excellent option to avoid this.

OTOH the borderland devs are male, and have done a stellar job, so it is my no means impossible.

Could someone explain the gay planet romance dlc to me?

[Gentlefish]

(though some may hide it, especially since there is a law in most states where you can kill someone who is trans and say it drove you insane temporarily to find out, and it has worked as a defense in the past.)

Okay can I hunt down the judge that passed this and play it off as temporary insanity for finding out that this happened because holy shit if I was in that courtroom I would have stabbed in the throat with the nearest object I could find.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

(though some may hide it, especially since there is a law in most states where you can kill someone who is trans and say it drove you insane temporarily to find out, and it has worked as a defense in the past.)

Aside: This isn't a law, it would probably be better defined as the absence of a certain law. What it means is that it is legal to submit trans panic as an argument in your favor during a trial. The reason it's an absence of a law is because California has a law banning the submission of this as an argument. That said, trans panic as an argument has at some point worked to escape or mitigate a murder charge, but that's about all that can be said for it. If you're down to trans panic as your defense you are almost certainly out of options.

Could someone explain the gay planet romance dlc to me?

Short version is that Star Wars: The Old Republic, had a romance system. This romance system initially only had straight romances. People wanted gay romances too, and so Bioware answered this call by...adding in a gay planet, full of gay people, who you could then gay romance. If that sounds kind of like a strange way to add this, you're right. It was apparently the most offensive and awkward thing Bioware had managed in a while, shoehorning to the extreme.

[Neonivek]

It isn't like Bioware was particularly inoffensive as it was. Their depictions of homosexual relationships are, flavored in particular ways.

Though yeah "Planet Gay" seems to just about the worst they ever done.

Though GOOD LUCK having an openly gay protagonist who isn't a "chose your own adventure". Not that I think people lose too much sleep over it.

Heck the game would probably make some HUGE deal over it and somehow thrust it into the audience face eliciting "Yes we get it the protagonist is gay". So things will get worse before they get better.

Heck this thread is INCREDIBLY white and it shows.

What was the last Black RPG protagonist? In a released game sold for money that is (So Shaqeel o Neel Shut up and Jam don't count).

The CLOSEST is one of the three protagonists in Suikeoden 3 (and when a JRPG is beating you in diversity...) and he is meant to be African.

And that is it as far as racial representation goes.

[Cheeetar]

Depends on your definition of RPG, I guess. How would you define it, Neonivek?

[Gentlefish]

This thread is about female representation in games, and Smeep has already stated that races should be more varied.

But this is a thread about females in games. Not race in games.

[Neonivek]

This thread is about female representation in games, and Smeep has already stated that races should be more varied.

But this is a thread about females in games. Not race in games.

Yes, but the thread is clearly highly "white" in any case because we are only referring to White Female protagonists aren't we?

What was the last Black Female main character? To my knowledge we don't have any.

As well, the talk about the effect of not having total female character saturation (as if 51% was somehow incredibly insufficient) I wanted to give this thread a bit of perspective.

Since right now we are talking about White Women, the second most privileged group in the world who are highly represented in all media.

Depends on your definition of RPG, I guess. How would you define it, Neonivek?

The RPG genre, and in this case not a "chose your own protagonist" and I am also saying it needs to have been sold in a store.

Just to eliminate obscure indie games.

[Cheeetar]

Yeah, when you define RPG as 'a member of the RPG genre' that doesn't really help me. Regardless, Pufferfish is right- if you really want to talk about race in video games, this isn't the thread for it, and you can create a new one very easily.

[Neonivek]

Yeah, when you define RPG as 'a member of the RPG genre' that doesn't really help me. Regardless, Pufferfish is right- if you really want to talk about race in video games, this isn't the thread for it, and you can create a new one very easily.

RPG, statistical representation of strength and abilities by numbers.

It is one of the basic genres... It is sort of like saying 'Horror' or 'romance' in a movie. You don't really get people saying "well it depends how you define romance".

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also I do find your objection quite interesting and I'll keep it stored until later. Also no it is pointless to make another thread, no one here cares about race in games anyhow. Hence why I only used it as a measurement.

Not that Race is a bad topic because Race and Age are IMPORTANT topics for talking about women.

Though women do get representation in RPGs a lot. It is one of the few genres that actually favor female characters and protagonists.

Mind you the issues with RPGs when it comes to women isn't so much "being there" or "being powerful" so much as how their characters and abilities evolve over time. There is a reason why the list of RPG Cliches mention that any middle aged woman, no matter how helpful, will betray you.

Which is sort of another thing that is great about the Point and Clicks. They aren't allergic to middle aged women. Oldest Point and click female? Senior citizen!... Oldest RPG female protagonist who isn't immortal? probably like... 20. Oldest Female Shooter protagonist? 20s. MAYBE Lara Croft eventually made it to her 30s, I don't know...

In fact what games with a female protagonist don't have her in her 20s or younger? (Ignoring cop outs).

I am reminded of the main villain of Rapsody who is constantly refered to as old or ugly because she is... 40!?! AHHH! NOO!!! (though another explanation... is that she is 30... and it is still creepy that she keeps hitting on a 16 year old boy... Which is... fair)

Which is kind of funny. Women who are 30+ in videogames are basically treated as hags.

[Gentlefish]

...But a lot of not-RPG's hold statistical representation of strength and abilities by numbers. That's sort of how all games hold their data values.

RPG's are defined as playing a role of a specific character with the ability to interact with the world.

Games with story modes like Call of Duty aren't RPG. You don't interact with the world. You're on rails, there is no world.

Skyrim and Final Fantasy VII are both equally RPG, but Resident Evil isn't, and neither is any of the HalfLife series.

[Neonivek]

Look as long as the game calls itself an RPG I'll accept it.

Games usually list their own genre.

I know what an RPG is, but a full explanation actually requires some history and some counter intuitive thinking (Since RPGs aren't "Roleplaying games" so to speak), so lets simplify the standards.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Yes, but the thread is clearly highly "white" in any case because we are only referring to White Female protagonists aren't we?

What was the last Black Female main character? To my knowledge we don't have any.

As well, the talk about the effect of not having total female character saturation (as if 51% was somehow incredibly insufficient) I wanted to give this thread a bit of perspective.

Since right now we are talking about White Women, the second most privileged group in the world who are highly represented in all media.

The RPG genre, and in this case not a "chose your own protagonist" and I am also saying it needs to have been sold in a store.

Just to eliminate obscure indie games.

Enough of this assuming that white people are intrinsically more privileged than everybody else. A Qatari Arab has, on average, more money than a white American. Most countries around the world do not have white rulers, certainly not if you count Hispanics as non-white.  It is true that if the average quality of life of all races was taken then whites would still be highest now, but that does not mean that a rich Chinese factory owner has a worse life than a white person in a US trailer park.

White women are highly represented in all media, except in those places where they are a minority, as in, where most of the world's people live. Most women in Indian media are, guess what, Indian and not white. And many Indians play games, so they are not irrelevant to this discussion.

We would see a lot more black RPG protagonists if Nigerians made AAA games, because they are the majority there, including in government, and whites are a minority. But they do not. Who does is rich Americans, Europeans and Japanese, who are unsurprisingly mostly white or, in the case of Japan, yellow. So how surprising is it that there are mostly white protagonists? Not very. Never mind that Skyrim still features a prominent race of black people, if my friend's screen saver is to be believed.

If the RPG is set in a past Europe or Japan, or a similar civilisation, blacks will be rare (absent in the case of Japan). Those who exist are likely to be slaves sold by their kings to Arabs, or their analogue. A few free black people were present in Europe, as shown in paintings from the period, so a free black protagonist is possible, but seeing black people everywhere would be unlikely outside a slave market! The game could be a "Django Unchained" situation of freeing slaves (black and white) from the Arabs, since the Arabs also enslaved white people captured by corsairs or in battle.

Why are RPGs not role playing games? What are they? Ruchnoy protivotankovy granatomyot? (Handheld anti-tank grenade launcher)? That is not a safe thing for people to play with...