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[smeeprocket]

The thing about publishers (Of any kind, really) is that you very quickly get into this circular logic. Games with girls don't sell because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell _{because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell}

People prefer to think of their own biases being an unfortunate reality rather then them being idiots.

This, exactly!

This is the problem. The fact is, women are a minority in games, yes, but they are a LARGE minority.

Also, the vast majority of protagonists are male, Reelya, as I posted earlier (twice actually,) so the budget of games with female protagonists is sort of irrelevant when there is such an incredible lack of those, and then a lot of those games heavily sexualize the protagonist.

[Caz]

People prefer to think of their own biases being an unfortunate reality rather then them being idiots.

It's an unfortunate reality that most people are idiots.

[Caz]

The thing about publishers (Of any kind, really) is that you very quickly get into this circular logic. Games with girls don't sell because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell _{because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell because we don't give them advertising and budget because games with girls don't sell}

People prefer to think of their own biases being an unfortunate reality rather then them being idiots.

This, exactly!

This is the problem. The fact is, women are a minority in games, yes, but they are a LARGE minority.

Also, the vast majority of protagonists are male, Reelya, as I posted earlier (twice actually,) so the budget of games with female protagonists is sort of irrelevant when there is such an incredible lack of those, and then a lot of those games heavily sexualize the protagonist.

Meh, it's a fact that male gamers are more common than female, especially in computer gaming. We should be comparing the number of games where you get to play a protagonist of either gender vs male instead of male vs female. There's always going to be more male protagonists because of that reason, the proven history of gaming (men used to play virtually all games, so games with male protagonist were the norm, which carried on more to tradition and successful series) though you can see how this is changing, since Gen 2 of the pokémon games you're able to make a female character. Looking at "games with pure male protagonist" vs "games with pure female protagonist" is always going to be disappointing. If the protagonist has a strict gender, it's always going to be more likely to be male, until the gaming landscape changes.

[Phmcw]

Also, the vast majority of protagonists are male, Reelya, as I posted earlier (twice actually,) so the budget of games with female protagonists is sort of irrelevant when there is such an incredible lack of those, and then a lot of those games heavily sexualize the protagonist.

There is very few heavily sexualised female character that met any kind of sucess. I don't agree with what you said about gamer and devoleper (or the movement you mentionned but that discussion ended up in flame war and the topic got banned twice) because I don't think that's what they want.

Gamers in gerneral aren't interested in big boobed bimbos or weak housewifes. First because our demorgaphic is progressive (read any politcal poll of  18-35 year males) and second because it's not interesting to play. But the peoples that are in charge of what AAA games will be aren't gamers or devs, they are "artistics" and "commercials" andd they are told that gamers like bimbos.

If you think about games with girls that worked out (portal, mirror edge, tomb raider 1 and 2... ) or well liked women characters, they never fit that mold.

[Urist Tilaturist]

I would just like to say that some games with female (Portal) or optionally female (Mass Effect) protagonists have been successful, so it is not true that these games have never been made or have never succeeded. Saying that there are fewer of them is true, but it should not be exaggerated.

[Reelya]

That was my point, Mirror's Edge should be not just regular successful, but overwhelming wildly successful for the very reason that it's a good game with a realistic female protagonist.

The fact that there aren't many games like that was actually my core argument. You say there's a shortage then why aren't people clamoring like crazy to buy the few that do exist? Normally a shortage leads to massive sales of the few that do exist (even if it's just one product). That then indicates to the executives that they should make more of that thing.

[Urist Tilaturist]

Fewer of them, not a shortage. A shortage indicates massive demand, which does not seem to exist; there is some demand, but not massive demand.

[ed boy]

Looking at "games with pure male protagonist" vs "games with pure female protagonist" is always going to be disappointing. If the protagonist has a strict gender, it's always going to be more likely to be male, until the gaming landscape changes.

I analysed my games in a previous post, and would encourage you and others do to the same with your games.

Indeed the number of strictly male protagonists far outweighed the number of strictly female protagonists, but the biggest category by far was protagonistless games.

[Caz]

Looking at "games with pure male protagonist" vs "games with pure female protagonist" is always going to be disappointing. If the protagonist has a strict gender, it's always going to be more likely to be male, until the gaming landscape changes.

I analysed my games in a previous post, and would encourage you and others do to the same with your games.

Already did for FPS games a couple of pages back.

[smeeprocket]

Also, the vast majority of protagonists are male, Reelya, as I posted earlier (twice actually,) so the budget of games with female protagonists is sort of irrelevant when there is such an incredible lack of those, and then a lot of those games heavily sexualize the protagonist.

There is very few heavily sexualised female character that met any kind of sucess. I don't agree with what you said about gamer and devoleper (or the movement you mentionned but that discussion ended up in flame war and the topic got banned twice) because I don't think that's what they want.

Gamers in general aren't interested in big boobed bimbos or weak housewifes. First because our demorgaphic is progressive (read any politcal poll of  18-35 year males) and second because it's not interesting to play. But the peoples that are in charge of what AAA games will be aren't gamers or devs, they are "artistics" and "commercials" andd they are told that gamers like bimbos.

If you think about games with girls that worked out (portal, mirror edge, tomb raider 1 and 2... ) or well liked women characters, they never fit that mold.

Please don't pretend like the majority of male gamers are progressive, Gamergate says otherwise.

You may speak for some male gamers on this, but even just looking at live streaming of games done by women, the shit that gets said to us... you have to be heavy on the ban button. I know girls who have wanted to stream, but are just terrified of the creepers and psychos that would be responding.

There is, in fact, and OVERWHELMING majority of male protagonists, which I have linked a wiki page for TWICE in this thread, and devaluing the desires of women gamers by saying there is not a demand for them, or suggesting that the sexualized or victimized females that do exist (often as side characters, not protagonists,) is simply erasure.

There are a lot of women that game, they are not any less capable of it than men. They represent a large enough group for their interests to be recognized and targeted. The absolute male dominance in the industry also suggests that females are very much being excluded from the process. Men aren't going to appeal to people that don't have their interest. Women would better be able to appeal to other women.

This is an issue that sort of cycles back on itself. People say there are not enough women gamers, women are viewed at inferior at games and in the industry (though the original programmers were mostly women, and the very first programmer was a woman,) they aren't hired, they aren't marketed to, and the majority of the male gamer populace (I stress majority, not saying all dudes,) go on about their business, and then get enraged anytime a female gamer speaks out or a game company tries to appeal to female gamers, often accusing them of having an "agenda"

God, male gamers... progressive. Maybe the gamers here, but in my experience, it is often quite the opposite elsewhere.

[Elephant Parade]

Please don't pretend like the majority of male gamers are progressive, Gamergate says otherwise.

The majority of male gamers aren't 'gaters, either. I might be wrong, but I'd expect the majority of male gamers to be neutral. Not progressive, maybe, but not awful, either.

Actually, I'm going to see if I can find some statistics.

[My Name is Immaterial]

Please don't pretend like the majority of male gamers are progressive, Gamergate says otherwise.

This is false. There have been surveys that demonstrate that the majority of them are liberals and moderates. Gamergate isn't right or left, though; it's its own beast.

[smeeprocket]

Please don't pretend like the majority of male gamers are progressive, Gamergate says otherwise.

The majority of male gamers aren't 'gaters, either. I might be wrong, but I'd expect the majority of male gamers to be neutral. Not progressive, maybe, but not awful, either.

Actually, I'm going to see if I can find some statistics.

I'm not sure you will find any on that specifically, though it might vary by age/genre.

My point being, there is a very hostile, dangerous male element in the gaming community that resents women being involved at all, (even though some of us have been here from the beginning, I've been gaming since before some of these noobs were born.)

My experience with gamer males has been bad, not going to lie. It's not every guy, but even trying to get them to acknowledge the problem with the representation of women in games is an uphill battle. My female guild was feminist (due to a dispute over political beliefs with my previous guild that I didn't want to repeat,) and when I advertised it, I would keep zone off, post to zone, and go to the next area. I learned this from other women who advertised female guilds. You did not read zone or you would be emotionally torn down by the end of the circuit from all the scummy things people would say.

[BurnedToast]

Please don't pretend like the majority of male gamers are progressive, Gamergate says otherwise.

God, male gamers... progressive. Maybe the gamers here, but in my experience, it is often quite the opposite elsewhere.

Please think about what you're saying for a minute. Using the actions of a small group of trolls and jerks to label and judge a whole larger group of people is incredibly insulting.

Consider the reaction if you'd said the same thing about any other group of people.

[Elephant Parade]

My point being, there is a very hostile, dangerous male element in the gaming community that resents women being involved at all, (even though some of us have been here from the beginning, I've been gaming since before some of these noobs were born.)

Oh, definitely. I wasn't trying to say that there wasn't a bad male element; I was just saying that the majority of male gamers, while probably not actively trying to be progressive, aren't actually attacking women, feminism, or anything related. They're the silent majority.

Unfortunately, the most unpleasant people tend to be the most vocal.