Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Fniff]

I don't know how to explain it to you more than it already has been. When you play a game, you generally want to insert yourself into the role of a hero. When there are no female heroes in the bulk of the games in a genre, or really, any genre, you stop being able to envision yourself in that role. It feels like "oh those kinds of things are for boys to dream about." When you see an ad and all the players in it are boys, it tells you that you are not one of the people that this game is for.

I've never experienced that. If you can't emphasise with a character from the other gender, maybe it's you that has the problem? We have the same issues, the same hopes and fears. There's really not much different between us.

Besides, how do you explain all the men who play women in games? And no, the answer probably isn't related to sexual matters. An example of this is Femshep, and she isn't sexualized.

[Neonivek]

Well talk shows are predominately female based... Fashion magazines are predominately female based... Romance magazines are predominately female.

Romance novels are predominately female... in fact novels are slowly becoming marketed directly towards women (because women are reading more then men).

So just use those as the measuring stick as to how much you feel affected by not having your gender represented.

Does it BUG you that men are overwhelmingly presented in Women's media as either bad people or without any sort of ability to think for themselves always chained to their love?

As well Women's media has a large tendency to attempt to change the male protagonist. While Men's media has a tendency to instead have the female protagonist see the true beauty within.

I am so lucky that being part feminist means I am quite aware of how women represent themselves. It always helps in these discussions

[smjjames]

Well talk shows are predominately female based... Fashion magazines are predominately female based... Romance magazines are predominately female.

Romance novels are predominately female... in fact novels are slowly becoming marketed directly towards women (because women are reading more then men).

So just use those as the measuring stick as to how much you feel affected by not having your gender represented.

Does it BUG you that men are overwhelmingly presented in Women's media as either bad people or without any sort of ability to think for themselves always chained to their love?

Except we're talking about games here, not other media. Also hey on the last sentence thing Yes it'd bug me. Then again, Romeo.....

[Neonivek]

Yes it'd bug me

You are aware that... I didn't make any of that up right?

A lot of it though has to do with the typical female romance set up. Which is her search to find the one good man admist a sea of duds.

While typical male romance set up is finding the special woman admist a sea of good ones.

So women's media typical portrayal of men has more to do with the narrative structure.

[smjjames]

Yes it'd bug me

You are aware that... I didn't make any of that up right?

Yes I'm aware that you didn't make that up, which is why I said 'Then again, Romeo...' It's classic for romantic novels or soap operas.

[Neonivek]

Ultimately I am using it as a mode of comparison.

Especially since "women's media" is rarely "Women's media" but rather women oriented media.

[Glowcat]

You know, whenever I hear about female heroes, I always wonder what the opinion is on female protagonists who definitely don't fit the mold of hero.
What would people think of the female version of Walter White or, more on-topic, Martin Walker from Spec Ops the Line?

Personally I want more anti-heroines or outright villains.

I wanna play the Kuvira.

[Reelya]

I don't know how to explain it to you more than it already has been. When you play a game, you generally want to insert yourself into the role of a hero. When there are no female heroes in the bulk of the games in a genre, or really, any genre, you stop being able to envision yourself in that role. It feels like "oh those kinds of things are for boys to dream about." When you see an ad and all the players in it are boys, it tells you that you are not one of the people that this game is for.

What's you're take on the EEDAR study in 2010?

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.228336-EEDAR-Says-the-Chicks-Are-Alright

There's no question that the industry has been dominated by male characters but the imbalance today may not be as great as generally perceived. According to new EEDAR research, 51 percent of games in the current console generation feature playable female characters.

The casual genre goes a long way toward keeping that figure high, with 80 percent of games in the genre featuring playable females, but the core genre does surprisingly well on its own: 46 percent of core games offer playable females as well.

The numbers are still heavily skewed toward males, with 90 percent of games across all genres featuring men in lead roles (ten percent were rated as "not discernible") but as EEDAR's Jesse Divnich pointed out, the relatively high rate of female representation "is an incredible accomplishment for our industry and reinforces our progress towards serving ever widening demographics."

I would definitely like to see the full list of games (they surveyed 669 last generation console titles) so we could pick it apart, that would definitely further the debate. That 51% is presumably 341 PS3, XBOX 360 and Wii games where there is a choice of a female character. Do none of them count as female representation?

Or by "bulk" of games not having female heroes do you mean to say that it's unacceptable if there are more playable male characters than female ones, regardless of how many games have playable female characters?

[BurnedToast]

It doesn't help that the gaming community tends to alienate women in general. I mean, this is a hotbutton issue when it really shouldn't be. People have, in this thread, argued against inclusiveness. There's basically a constant message being broadcast: "No girls allowed!"

This is easy to explain. You're basically coming in and saying to guys "hey, you know that thing you like exactly the way it is? yeah, I don't like it. let's change it to be better for me!"

I'm sure you think you're changing it for the better, for both men and women. That may ultimately be true. But people are shortsighted, and video games in particular have had to withstand a lot of attacks in recent memory - attempts to ban or regulate them out of existence based on "morality" so gamers in general are very, very defensive. It's no surprise they react in a hostile manner to what's easy to mistake for more attacks, based on what seem to be similar concerns.

If this were flipped, and guys weren't represented at all, well first off, anything girly is considered stupid, so they probably would mostly ignore games entirely

This is completely false. Cite: "bronies"

[Neonivek]

Ignoring that most games aren't masculine... the general attitude suggests that men wouldn't care.

So you really shouldn't ask "What would you do if it was flipped?" when men do not have their own "things" (Most guys don't consider games a "Guy thing", only so much that a lot of guys play it) but recognize that women in fact do "have their own things" that men aren't allowed to participate in, without odd looks, and this is the accepted reality.

There are some things that are actually outside male privilege.

People have, in this thread, argued against inclusiveness

They have argued against inclusiveness for inclusiveness sake. Or rather against forced or artificial inclusiveness (AKA: Kids Show inclusiveness!)

Preferring it to happen organically and over time. Over pressing the issue. Them wanting games to change because people's tastes change rather then because people are pressing the issue.

But people are shortsighted, and video games in particular have had to withstand a lot of attacks in recent memory

Well not just videogames. A lot of gamers are also part of "nerd culture" (or Geek Culture) which itself has been demonized several times. Such as the whole "Dungeons and dragons is Satanic" thing that was so large I was surprised me parents actually referenced it when I told them I played it... Or Rock and Roll, or Rap, or *keeps going*. Basically culture isn't very nice to niche groups with interests that the general public do not understand... and Indeed a lot of the criticisms brought forth towards games are often done without an understanding of the medium.

As well unlike most things Videogames are not protected under the belief that it is an artform. Thus people do not respect its artistic integrity in general, so criticism has a lot more impact because it is more of a criticism against the genre itself. Mind you this is changing, but you don't see anyone legally protecting the right for a game's artistic statements.

[penguinofhonor]

People's tastes change because people press the issue.

[Neonivek]

People's tastes change because people press the issue.

People's tastes change because they become acclimated to what is available and refine their interests.

No one stopped disliking bikini chainmail because people started writing petitions.

But sure, one way to change people's taste is to press the issue. But that is precisely what people do not want to happen. For people to have "this is wrong" hit into their head over and over again until they just have to give in to make the yelling stop.

[Phmcw]

That's a constant in this discussion : "you are again inclusiveness!".

Now we aren't! We're against the way you have choosen. It bother me a great deal that sex-shaming 2.0 is so prevalent these days, for instance. We discussed in this very thread if the character in WOW were adequately clothed for ...'s sake. What are we? The 30's censorship bureau?

As for inclusivemness, the all SF sjw team isn't exactly a shining example of diversity.

[BurnedToast]

As well unlike most things Videogames are not protected under the belief that it is an artform. Thus people do not respect its artistic integrity in general, so criticism has a lot more impact because it is more of a criticism against the genre itself. Mind you this is changing, but you don't see anyone legally protecting the right for a game's artistic statements.

At least in america, the supreme court has ruled that video games are art, and are thus legally protected under the first amendment.

[Neonivek]

As well unlike most things Videogames are not protected under the belief that it is an artform. Thus people do not respect its artistic integrity in general, so criticism has a lot more impact because it is more of a criticism against the genre itself. Mind you this is changing, but you don't see anyone legally protecting the right for a game's artistic statements.

At least in america, the supreme court has ruled that video games are art, and are thus legally protected under the first amendment.

Yay!